A mess of witches or doctors, femme pain, birthing on your back and Uniting Nations with Dr Tlaleng Mofokeng aka Dr. T.

00:00:00: and I want to go on record saying how proud of you i am, my love.

00:00:51: shelf stuff.

00:00:52: Welcome to another season of what is this hot mess?

00:00:57: As those who have visited us in our little speakeasy before know, I am your favorite bartender Tiffany Kaguremuga pouring you a shot on that reality on the rocks!

00:01:10: For those haven't stumbled upon fine establishment yet This podcast kicks it with fire feminists from across the globe having conversations about the fact that the world is hot trash right now.

00:01:25: We are back with season two and this time it's a little different, The episodes are shorter and the segments are gone.

00:01:32: Those of you who have listened before know I do this mainly to chat on company-time & company-dime And This episode Is No Different Because i'm joined by Dr Klaling Mofo King Who is A Personal flex on my Rolodex, one of the people I like to name.

00:01:51: drop in polite conversation.

00:01:53: Like

00:01:54: what boss?

00:01:55: Yes

00:01:55: Dr T!

00:01:57: I do know her but for those who don't know this person and shame on

00:02:03: you

00:02:04: Dr.

00:02:04: T is, according to the Googles a South African medical doctor renowned sexual and reproductive health activist and best-selling author of the book Doctor T A Guide To Sexual Health And Pleasure.

00:02:19: As this episode dropping she's in her final stretch of her stint serving as UN Special Rapporteur on The Right To Health –a job that has been bossing since.

00:02:33: In her general vibe, she focuses on universal health access HIV care and gender equality.

00:02:39: Having founded a reproductive health clinic And also held roles in advocacy and policy She is the sexual superhero that you have been waiting for.

00:02:51: So with my current obsession of like misogyny and medicine Like it really is My Roman Empire right now people

00:02:59: who

00:02:59: better to have a chat with than the maverick of medicine herself.

00:03:04: The one who eyeballs the world and says, be better do better.

00:03:09: so we must start strong And We Must Start from the very beginning.

00:03:18: Very interesting history in terms of anthropology and their history of medicine itself but also very Interesting how in where medicine operates as a science is skill it operates within society right, it requires the same systems of power and authority to assert itself.

00:03:37: And power asserts itself through people it deems with less power voiceless powerless.

00:03:42: that's why I hate those two words.

00:03:43: powerless voiceless It already says is the pretext for abuse?

00:03:47: For me on a system level.

00:03:49: but That's how power does and that's what medicine does as an Authority pleading to even how we are taught medicine as medical students, not just the content.

00:04:02: Even in a method of teaching they tell us will break you to make them but never come back and make us.

00:04:09: We were told that first day of medical school for the very first year you are creme de la creme!

00:04:13: Do you know how many people wanted to be in your positions?

00:04:16: And could not?

00:04:17: because you're the smartest?

00:04:18: what-what off all of it You aren't just the cream baby...you are the CREAM DE LA CREME!

00:04:23: The CREAM OF THE CREAM!

00:04:25: What?!

00:04:27: And then you walk out with a stethoscope, or that white lab coat.

00:04:30: You look at them in titles and unless you are truly centered as the human being we see how people misuse power and authority.

00:04:37: We see that.

00:04:38: so it's the same.

00:04:39: medicine is science.

00:04:41: It's the science of practice and the practices happening on to humans onto other humans bodies.

00:04:46: So no wonder the patriarchy, the misogyny The capitalism all those way they impact our body.

00:04:54: Our doctors are operating in the same space too.

00:04:57: And so medicine is political, our bodies are political and unless you have trained doctors and healthcare workers and health providers who understand how in practicing this medicine that I've been studying for ten years it's either perpetuating harm creating harm or at least a hope your being intentional about not really causing harm which was first sort of oath.

00:05:20: You know do no harm, but what does it actually mean in practice?

00:05:23: And I don't think doctors.

00:05:24: No one to know him means when you are the person in power and authority a new other potential harm.

00:05:31: It requires a very different kind of Looking-in-the-mirror A Very Different Kind Of Self Interrogation.

00:05:39: When You Know That By virtue of that Signature Ended a Stotoscope Power Moves & Shifts Through Me In A Particular Way And They Do Know How.

00:05:47: Maybe Those People Who Came Before Us Knew that we would need to remember that.

00:05:55: As women, we cannot

00:05:57: have nice things.

00:05:58: We try and help and whamble People snatch it from us.

00:06:02: I'm always complaining That everything is a male-dominated field

00:06:06: Like

00:06:06: how am i being told To get back in the kitchen?

00:06:09: But also In this same breath All of the Michelin star chefs Are men.

00:06:15: How?

00:06:16: Then I must be obsessed with shopping.

00:06:18: Yet all of top designers are men.

00:06:20: We, as the femmes and the thems cannot have nice things.

00:06:25: And medicine is the same!

00:06:27: Throughout history women played a role of healers traveling from place to place with their herbs in decent bedside manner birthing children alleviating ailments basically helping people out.

00:06:41: I recently learned that the voodoo doll and pins put into.

00:06:44: it wasn't anything nefarious.

00:06:46: It was a way of tracking your medical chart.

00:06:49: You came here with a headache?

00:06:50: We put a pin in it.

00:06:52: Now your headache is gone, we take the pin out

00:06:55: but now

00:06:55: you're belly aches so we have to put a pen there!

00:06:58: Now its all.

00:06:59: I need to get revenge on my enemies as scary ominous figure shakes bones into background.

00:07:06: Over

00:07:06: time men have squeezed their way and women healers become witches.

00:07:11: If u do not know how birthing canal works or fever work just say

00:07:16: so.

00:07:16: There's

00:07:17: no need for slander sir But like, no.

00:07:20: Also let's go on record No shade to my witches.

00:07:23: There is nothing wrong with being a witch Because shout out To ma girlies With their moon water and the sage.

00:07:29: We see y'all And we respect your work.

00:07:32: Now also In ancient Egypt Priestesses of ISIS Were regarded as physician healers.

00:07:39: Who took they healing powers Straight from goddess Isis herself.

00:07:44: Egyptian records show that women studied at the Royal Medical School at Heliopolis, I think it's said in Cairo as early as fifteen hundred BC.

00:07:55: If one looks at various Indigenous practices across the world you saw women with their healing getting people back on their feet helping with birthing and all sorts of things Women of the Ethaga clan, and I hope i've said this right because it's from Kikuyu traditions.

00:08:10: And I am Kikuju were particularly known as doctors and practitioners

00:08:16: Of

00:08:16: traditional medicine often providing remedies for various

00:08:21: ailments and illnesses.

00:08:23: But

00:08:23: yes!

00:08:24: I'm here to blame Europe FOR ALL THE THINGS even though shout out my podcast partners During the Renaissance, which began in the seventeenth-sixteenth century modern medicine was born and by the seventeen hundreds medicine had become a respectable profession.

00:08:41: And men begin to take over role of midwife or other practitioners such as herbalists.

00:08:50: Women were first people who helped others' birth right?

00:08:57: We're not even gonna get into

00:08:58: that.

00:08:59: Yeah, like

00:09:00: hey... No but actually we must.

00:09:02: and

00:09:02: later the practice of birthing right.

00:09:04: supporting women through birthing became a technical skill and men started taking over the industry of doulas in midway free, right?

00:09:12: And because they can't just be like those women.

00:09:14: They then had to go on off course become doctors obstetricians or whatever do it.

00:09:17: but that art.

00:09:18: there are two birthings supporting people spiritually mentally physically through the process of pregnancy and birthing and post.

00:09:25: that was something not sacred as in don't touch is its secret.

00:09:30: by sacred isn't that we honored their entire being And we honored the soul and spirits, everything that was happening in this moment beyond just medicine or anesthesia.

00:09:42: So by pushing women out of obstetrics and gynaecology then elevating it to something only doctors could do they gave orders for midwives.

00:09:53: We see now how are all moving back-to-the practice of having doulors To be more empowered truly autonomous to be participants in their own caregiving through a pregnancy process.

00:10:05: Why is it so revolutionary and such an act of rebellion for women?

00:10:08: To say, actually I would love to have a doula and midwife present In my birthing And this antenatal process.

00:10:14: why does that's such a revolution thing?

00:10:16: we need to be asking ourselves that right.

00:10:18: So there is history too This work into medicine who seem to be credible as a patient.

00:10:27: So you're saying, why do doctors take your pain from a nine to six?

00:10:31: You are lucky that they will even listen to your pain and not call it hysteria.

00:10:36: And there's what?

00:10:37: Historectomy because if we did take out this womb these women would be less hysterical one day... ...and just give them the hysterectomy.

00:10:50: Women were only left of medical field but also research.

00:10:54: It has been a shit show.

00:10:56: One study of a signed female at birth bodies and medical research says that.

00:11:01: Historically, women have been excluded from clinical trials in biomedical research because researchers considered the presence of menstruation rendered the biological processes within the female body's too variable to glean reliable results...

00:11:17: ...and

00:11:17: or because of fears harming prospects for future pregnancy.

00:11:22: Thus, most research data has been collected from males and generalized to females, intersex people, transgendered people or gender non-conformists.

00:11:33: As someone who is currently on their period right now I take great offense for this.

00:11:39: Fun fact women in the United States were left out of clinical trials till nineteen ninety three.

00:11:45: That's same year.

00:11:46: Whitney Houston

00:11:47: and Mariah

00:11:47: Carey dropped that

00:11:48: fire...plabo

00:11:51: for the Prince of Egypt.

00:11:53: We are not even going to get into problems around specifically assigned female at birth related medical conditions like fibroids and their friends.

00:12:02: This research is grossly underfunded.

00:12:06: For example, we know more about male pattern baldness than we do about endometriosis.

00:12:11: Also, male Viagra was approved in six months whilst a pill for women and sexual pain took seventeen years.

00:12:20: And so that's what happens.

00:12:21: So the misogyny is even in words, it's in terms we use Right?

00:12:27: Fun fact We give birth on our backs because of some fellow named Francois Marseille-Kir.

00:12:34: I don't know if i've said his name right But anyway He claimed that reclining position would be both more comfortable for pregnant women and convenient for male physician attending to her.

00:12:46: More convenient

00:12:47: Sir

00:12:48: What do you mean I am pushing out a human being.

00:12:51: I don't think your convenience should be at the top of this

00:12:53: list.".

00:12:54: Anyway, remember all that stuff where midwives were being pushed-out?

00:12:59: Well...this is what happens!

00:13:01: Their knowledge and wisdom are

00:13:02: erased.

00:13:04: We're

00:13:04: actually meant to give birth squatting kneeling or in some sort other upright position because you know gravity.

00:13:12: Also something about an enlarging pelvic diameter.

00:13:16: According one medical profession.

00:13:19: birthing on our back is illogical making birthing needlessly complicated and expensive turning a natural process into A medical event, And the laboring woman Into a passive patient.

00:13:34: You know for long time I couldn't do a pepsmear.

00:13:36: Like this isn't so bad like For me to say but it's the truth that part of my trauma with The system for a long time i couldn't Do a pep smear.

00:13:43: All right

00:13:44: why?

00:13:44: That's speculum!

00:13:45: That silver speckleum that instrument they use.

00:13:50: And because of these politics of medicine and the ways in which I interact with the world, and of course systems of power authority.

00:13:57: The deans of health... There was a time when i really just felt it made me so angry that whole process to think about how little research and development has been done for women.

00:14:11: if men had to sit for pepsmears They would have by now developed something that you just put your spit into gum and it tells if they have sabaccal cancer or not.

00:14:22: Okay look, I don't know If You've seen those videos of men trying period cramp machines but It is brilliant.

00:14:29: like these Men are losing their minds whilst the woman sitting next to them.

00:14:33: Is this like scrolling on her phone?

00:14:35: Its really good watching.

00:14:37: i'd say if you're having a hard day at work Just watch them during your lunch break.

00:14:42: its literally one Of my favorite genre online videos.

00:14:45: do it, just like go and find them.

00:14:48: Because women's pain is grossly misunderstood and

00:14:52: understated.".

00:14:54: Fun fact!

00:14:54: And I told you this episode—it's like chocked full of them —just so many.

00:14:58: It's a hoot-a minute right?

00:15:00: Anyway according to studies Women wait sixty five more minutes than men in the ER before receiving pain medication... ...and are more likely to be prescribed sedatives rather then painkillers.

00:15:12: Their ailments are often ascribed to anxiety or seen as psychosomatic.

00:15:17: Women also

00:15:19: less likely receive aggressive treatment for whatever is bothering

00:15:24: them The ways in which we have take care of ourselves, it's not just cumbersome but uncomfortable.

00:15:32: It has pain you know As doctors by the way asking about the misogyny medicine If and I do this I'm an abortion provider Insertions of intrautrient devices as a living, that's my life.

00:15:45: I work with women's

00:15:45: health.".

00:16:00: It's assumed that of course, men can be in pain.

00:16:02: So part what it is when man have a vasectomy analgesia just part of that.

00:16:07: urologist.

00:16:07: don't spend half an hour on each patient every day right into medical aid to justify anesthesia for their vasectomies.

00:16:15: the urologists themselves would been the streets revolting because like What do you mean?

00:16:19: How are we making money?

00:16:20: but they were people The doctors who had taken care of women.

00:16:24: I having two spent not Just You know there's thirty minutes i'm spending with you.

00:16:28: I spent another forty minutes Motivating why your treatment has to be dignified, it has to pain free.

00:16:34: Why all of this?

00:16:35: Because

00:16:35: even like that male contraceptive pill That was taken quickly off the market

00:16:41: We know why.

00:16:42: we know why.

00:16:42: apparently they got five side effects and they were absolutely

00:16:45: not headache, nausea Unpredictable sort-of mood swing every now and then.

00:16:50: And there are people who say oh my God our lives aren't going to be disrupted.

00:16:53: But for women Oh we owe you to the world honey You owe me to the World.

00:16:58: There is a way in which There is, and I've written about this for the UN in a different context but talking about violent systems.

00:17:08: And why women are not believed when we're believed to be ridiculed?

00:17:11: When maybe someone's ridiculed they still just denial of what it is that you were saying is the truth.

00:17:17: The whole thing around epistemic injustice right?

00:17:21: Not only like if your black woman oh my

00:17:23: gosh forget about it!

00:17:24: Right now you have a black, poor woman or disability from a rural environment.

00:17:31: Oh, no one is believing you.

00:17:32: In fact they are questioning why do think you know right?

00:17:35: So the idea of epistemic injustice this finding certain people as not credible to know what they know or to relay what their relay all too be a witness on.

00:17:44: but they say out even experience I thing that he said if experienced.

00:17:49: we've seen it and it's systemic As for example sex worker still being criminalized in not been listened about the harms off current law or someone like Kasta Semenya's entire livelihood taken away because some white girl cried, cause she beat her.

00:18:04: She came tense!

00:18:05: She was always gonna not win even if Kasta didn't win the race.

00:18:08: but you know White women tears.

00:18:09: they matter for the world.

00:18:11: and Kasta's entire career was literally blown decimated at The Peak by the way...she lost everything.

00:18:17: Not just have little to run But make an income.

00:18:19: To have brand deals Like literal retirement policy a plan gone because she doesn't actually can be a credible witness.

00:18:27: but the white tears that came tenth in the race is so important and so credible, that it decimated Caster's entire career.

00:18:35: It happens in so many different ways And those are the systems of oppression we operate within.

00:18:40: So these systems then say oh to become a runner you need make sure your estrogen level is particular.

00:18:46: We have done ultrasound scans for all women rubbish.

00:18:50: It's all of it to try and control this idea of femininity, but also what does fertility look like?

00:18:56: And who is allowed and not allowed to be fertile?

00:19:03: health Like everything else Is political.

00:19:10: Why it's important?

00:19:11: why its political is that Health isn't just about getting To a clinic when you need one.

00:19:16: It's also about wellness, it is about longevity.

00:19:19: And you can't be well and have longevity if then when you are sick... ...you cannot get screened early or access definitive treatment and management early….

00:19:30: …and that your ability to live without comorbidities,... ...without illnesses which lead to disabilities,… If there was a chronic illness – all of this depends on unfortunately where you were born!

00:19:48: As I said at the start of this podcast, Dr.

00:19:51: T has a fancy UN job!

00:19:57: What was your title in the end?

00:19:58: UN Special

00:19:59: Rapperture on the right for everyone to the highest attainable standard of physical and mental health.

00:20:04: Hey hey hey!

00:20:07: To twenty-twenty six we are wrapping up N'Goku.

00:20:11: Yeah it's been that long Six years, six years.

00:20:14: It's been so long

00:20:15: I swear We were just unilating Over it,

00:20:19: literally.

00:20:20: And I did my interview—my final interview like top five interviews in my house during the first lockdown.

00:20:28: So Kiribu's what is a special rapporteur?

00:20:31: i am so glad you asked.

00:20:33: According to Wikipedia A Special Rapporteur or Independent Expert Is The Title That The United Nations Gives To The Independent Human Rights Expert called to report or advise on human rights from a thematic, country-specific perspective.

00:20:50: They are in charge of holding increase into violations which means that they're essentially calling people out their nonsense – an act that doesn't always earn you lots of friends!

00:21:02: If you do your job right…you should have hordes of haters.

00:21:07: There are also mission reports and recommendations, And talking to governments and victims of violations and organizations.

00:21:15: It is a big,

00:21:17: BIG job!

00:21:19: Back in the day when Tiffy was a sweet wide-eyed menace In the Palsai department I dreamed being one of these.

00:21:25: Then i met on in real life and found out it wasn't just fancy trips and speeches at podiums.

00:21:31: IT WAS

00:21:32: FLAMES

00:21:33: MY GUY

00:21:34: for

00:21:35: lames.

00:21:36: It's going and finding the most vulnerable, The ones who are going through it Going into countries that doing

00:21:42: absolute

00:21:43: wicked business And asking hello What is going on here?

00:21:48: The steak dinners and fancy whiskeys Are few and far between.

00:21:53: So it was like dream deferred hard Which

00:21:56: why we must

00:21:57: give those Who were in these positions their flowers Because For a lot of us could never.

00:22:08: So when I applied, I knew that I'm applying into an imperfect institution.

00:22:12: the UN is not a perfect institution by any matrix and so for me it was a matter of how do i best use this transient position as an outsider because some are not employed but them to do something.

00:22:26: I mean expert right there.

00:22:27: they suppose I'm supposed to produce reports with him.

00:22:30: you know do all over human rights stand-in setting do the full thing.

00:22:35: How do I utilize this institution knowing its authority and it's power still in the world?

00:22:40: To actually elevate their stories, advocate for people who are not vulnerable because they're individuals made by decisions.

00:22:48: but systems make them that way.

00:22:53: underlying determinants of health, you know lead to poor health outcomes.

00:22:57: You know delayed healthcare leads to poor outcome.

00:22:59: so there's reasons why even if we say a woman come back for and check up in two months time in eight weeks Even though she has the right information.

00:23:08: She loves herself!

00:23:09: She also wants to live but can't risk being unemployed because is working an informal economy.

00:23:16: maybe does have her job but she has no labor protections and no sick leave.

00:23:20: And when she does have leave, just to split between herself and maybe her children right?

00:23:25: So women then don't come back for checkup.

00:23:28: it's very easy say ah!

00:23:29: Women don't care woman doesn't care about themselves.

00:23:31: you know they'll all comeback here with such advanced cancer But nobody pauses.

00:23:36: what is up these systems?

00:23:38: that women cannot actually come back because we've done a diagnosis.

00:23:42: there's the plan She understood.

00:23:44: why are they not coming back?

00:23:46: and the issues of infrastructure.

00:23:47: The roads are bad if there's a storm for three days, we can't cross the river because it's overflowing!

00:23:52: And you've missed your appointment?

00:23:53: You have missed an appointment cause no one cares

00:23:55: right?!

00:23:56: If your in-law passes away guess who has to use their annual leave to go cook in the villages cos they're in law has passed away... It is the

00:24:03: women!!

00:24:04: The men was in at five

00:24:05: p.m.,

00:24:07: maybe two am half way through.

00:24:11: So those were realities that I wanted.

00:24:13: bring these realities to those institutions such as the UN, because medicine is not a sterile practice.

00:24:20: The right-to-health which has human rights happens in particular context.

00:24:25: it's not a right that abstracts somewhere there.

00:24:28: It's one of most inclusive rights That really takes into account beyond what happened at the consultation clinic or hospital.

00:24:37: During her tenure Dr T stayed booked and busy Outside of dodging the haters and smacking down The Patriarchy, she also wrote some fire reports.

00:24:47: And got muddled in some court cases.

00:24:49: Law & Order

00:24:50: is VU style!

00:24:54: So the Court Cases I've chosen to participate as a third party intervener.

00:24:59: bringing human rights perspective or right-to-health perspectives to particular court cases has been important.

00:25:04: It's cases where normally perhaps we wouldn't think are important enough right or not groundbreaking enough, but when you have an intersectional understanding of how life works.

00:25:13: When you have real testimonies from people and bring that to the court Believe it or not, we still have to do this with the judges.

00:25:22: Show them that human rights are not just things to articulate and be like.

00:25:26: oh their state must aspire too?

00:25:28: No no no!

00:25:28: It's not an aspiration.

00:25:30: these are real things they must realize.

00:25:33: put budgets in there must put policies on action to protect that right is not a hypothetical perpetual aspiration.

00:25:40: so thats what I wanted to show how racism as well and coloniality whether historical or current context.

00:25:47: because obviously we're new colonials not, we still very colonized my dear sisters and heathens and brothers.

00:25:54: We are not in any neo-colonial state of any kind.

00:25:58: but okay for the liberals find neocolonialism that infact those are still very harmful ,that those systems and their harm finds itself and maps it self onto our bodies even today .

00:26:12: And then merging human rights and those politics an understanding It was very important for me.

00:26:19: So I brought politics from day one into this mandate

00:26:25: and One hundred percent the politics were brought full throttle Pro max as the kids would say.

00:26:31: wait, did I do that right?

00:26:33: Let me just let me check my notes.

00:26:36: i

00:26:37: feel That you everyone must tell Me if i did what i said i will do because i'm too far in it now i think to be proper objective for a conversation like this, but I couldn't subject to very bias men.

00:26:49: I think i did more than I said I would do because the time demanded that right.

00:26:54: um and I did go back to my first report of The Journal Assembly on my strategic priorities.

00:27:01: And then I read that and it's like Did I do what?

00:27:03: It is just What I thought I would Do Because the Time was Very Different from When I Was Appointed To Now.

00:27:08: In Any Case Right

00:27:09: So Many Ways Hey Literal

00:27:11: in Other ways Yeah.

00:27:13: so That Report On Violence.

00:27:15: I know what you're looking for.

00:27:16: It's a non-binary approach to violence, that is why it was titled Thank You!

00:27:22: She looks at me and my phone being like if i can just scroll...

00:27:26: It's violence in the right to health Right?

00:27:28: And a Non-Binary

00:27:29: Approve.

00:27:31: Okay don't be judging me sometimes I do research afterwards Sometimes during the podcast.

00:27:36: Now The exact name of this report Is Violence & Its Impact on the Right To Health.

00:27:41: The report has an emphasis on the violence experienced by women, children and non-binary people.

00:27:47: And on conflict related sexual violence and structural violence.

00:27:53: in it this magical being that is Dr T adopts a substantive equality approach and analyzes violence and its impact On the right of everyone to

00:28:03: highest

00:28:04: attainable standard Of physical and mental health within an intersectional anti-racist and anti-coloniality framework.

00:28:35: ignored because we don't see people as credible witnesses to their lives.

00:28:38: So I'm very aware that in writing the reports, i am contributing To undoing epistemic injustice

00:28:47: And in this report she truly did.

00:28:50: The report says In seeking to end and respond to violence She proposes an intersectional non-discriminatory and gender, non-binary approach that understands gender based violence as a phenomenon That includes matters of sexuality And violations against persons on the basis Of their real or imputed sexual orientation Gender identity & sex characteristics.

00:29:15: She underscores that A Non-Binary Approach to Gender and Gender Based Violence Is Well Rooted in International Human Rights Law.

00:29:26: So that report was particularly important because we often hear of violence as interpersonal violence.

00:29:36: A person hit someone else, a man hit the woman right?

00:29:40: And she's forever victim in her story and every time I talk about the violence trigger warning whatever happened to him.

00:29:47: she is the center of that particular narrative, not the perpetrator.

00:29:52: So we continually disempowering her by centering the violence and not the person who violated her.

00:29:59: so it's whatever she does or doesn't do...the victim-laid charges right?

00:30:05: If she lays charges people are like oh yeah!

00:30:07: It was a serious thing.

00:30:08: if he doesn't this one was playing never what the perpetrators did just from how the media reports on violence.

00:30:16: I already had a question mark to be like, surely we can do better?

00:30:21: On their right-to-health perspective it's important for us to understand as health and care workers when someone walks in saying that they have access done to me or are victim of whatever... To believe this person!

00:30:36: And believing them….

00:30:38: We all know there is struggle like hashtag believer but what does it mean practice?

00:30:43: In practice it means And they say, I've been raped.

00:30:47: You can't strict a warning.

00:30:48: sorry you can even stay as health care workers but how when you look like a boy?

00:30:55: because i've heard that right?

00:30:56: How will you look Like A Boy?

00:31:00: um what yeah Right and so oh.

00:31:04: But why?

00:31:05: Why are you complaining there your husband?

00:31:08: now They paid Lobola for you So the month always be able to have sex with you right?

00:31:11: people Have Heard those things and so while was writing it in That way is that We also have to think beyond what we know about who a victim of violence is, but also whose potential perpetrator of violence.

00:31:24: Because children are not believed intentionally because the boyfriend or mother is a perpetrator and suddenly they can't be a perpetrate.

00:31:35: So

00:31:36: even listening to children requires us to see them that there could be potential victims.

00:31:42: so how do you understand it?

00:31:47: And victims of systems that are beyond interpersonal violence was also important because if you're a person with the disability and every day, You must fight with people at the shopping mall to let you park in the disability parking.

00:32:03: Because when you get out there's no wheelchair that follows you right?

00:32:06: So you must perform on particular level or physical.

00:32:09: look at me I'm disabled To be believed that your disabled and then should we getting particular society has been engineered in way That helps you navigate it.

00:32:20: Even disability has a particular way that it looks, that causes harm to other people who have particular kinds of disability.

00:32:28: And that is in itself as kind over systemic violence right?

00:32:33: People talk up more and now are writing about ableism.

00:32:37: I'm talking all these now bringing them within the human rights context to a particular incline, so it's not so steep.

00:32:50: So that they can actually wheel themselves in their own wheelchair around the spaces they need... They're not asking for favor but their ramps must be wide enough.

00:32:59: or at the rural clinic when it rains there are two stones used to connect the clinic and road.

00:33:06: They went away with the rain.

00:33:07: Now there's nothing, now the wheelchair users can't even make that one jump from on-the-one side of road to clinic road like it is a whole thing.

00:33:16: and so talking about violence in violent systems above beyond interpersonal violence was really important.

00:33:24: but also because what happened in context where transgender rights are being attacked globally?

00:33:30: within UN You have the rights of intersex persons also experiencing a lot of pushback.

00:33:37: There were many court cases at that time as well, they're trying to take away their right to abortion for example and I was talking about those systemic structural violations as well.

00:33:48: how when law participates in particular ways itself is an enabler or generator of harm?

00:33:56: And then do you use human rights to respond?

00:33:58: In

00:34:00: the report, Dr.

00:34:00: T argues that systemic or institutional violence refers to institutional practices laws Or procedures that adversely affect groups or individuals psychologically mentally culturally economically spiritually or physically.

00:34:18: This type of violence has its origins within or outside The state and is a major obstacle for the realization Of the right To Health.

00:34:28: The report defines structural violence as a subtle and quite often invisible form of violence, normalized through laws policies.

00:34:35: And the institutionalization of certain practices that have their roots in the legacies of colonialism racism apartheid and structural socioeconomic inequalities.

00:34:49: If parents and caregivers are stuck in taxis and buses trying to get from CBDs two way they're living right.

00:34:58: You can't just walk into any clinic and be like, listen my bus was delayed or I had to go home quickly.

00:35:03: To feed the kids do their washing And then come.

00:35:05: there's no clinic that open after four.

00:35:07: So where are you getting your services?

00:35:09: If you're a person who at five o'clock?

00:35:11: Knocks off an only gets home at eight.

00:35:14: right how Are you get in your health?

00:35:15: How are you doing your contraception?

00:35:16: How were you getting Your screening our getting your information?

00:35:19: so all of it is related and connected.

00:35:23: and third one Was talking about the space in which we share it together, right?

00:35:27: The social contract at that time had been decimated by COVID and the rules of association.

00:35:33: You can't go there you cannot do this but in literal terms is very unsafe for many people to be outside.

00:35:40: a lot of violence happens when you're trying get transportation or going from train to your house.

00:35:44: When are working out door whether its informal trading or sex work It doesn't matter what it is.

00:35:52: Many of us are walking and working outdoor And it's very unsafe.

00:35:57: You know, people coming up with whistles like if a woman feels unsafe she must blow the whistle and then other blow the whistler in them.

00:36:04: The community you know mobilizes others bang pots.

00:36:07: Others have come out put all sorts of apps to be like SOS.

00:36:10: I'm in trouble.

00:36:11: Like that lengths we go through just trying survive daily life is too much.

00:36:17: We don't see this as violence as innovation, you know?

00:36:26: Submit innovative ways to respond to violence.

00:36:29: The fact that I must think of a way... ...to survive cannot be an innovation and refuse.

00:36:35: And surviving violence can be prevented!

00:36:38: It's still mean

00:36:39: eh?!

00:36:39: They're not saying men stop raping or abusing.

00:36:42: they are saying young people innovate come up with the idea.

00:36:47: So for me our say let us be careful to the extent we victim blame in how we think about policy.

00:36:54: We shame and blame even how we then think of programming, on how to respond.

00:36:59: Because I think in the absolute desperation to respond... Hey!

00:37:02: We are seeing a lot of things man.

00:37:06: And this is not just you know conversation about at least these points.

00:37:09: it's not about individual women who show up every day for other than individual woman?

00:37:12: We do that anyway with eachother.

00:37:14: I'm talking about state-fundant sanctioned programs ideas & policies That You Think... Is anyone thinking

00:37:20: here?!

00:37:22: It's anybody thinking, you know because we will always show up for each other.

00:37:25: We would all whether or not the government comes what doesn't come guys.

00:37:28: We are always showing up for Each other but that also gets weaponized Right there.

00:37:34: Also itself has to be packaged in a particular way.

00:37:36: they seem to be palatable and therefore it'll get funding.

00:37:39: so I've seen a lot And have heard a lot and now i've said in meetings where?

00:37:43: You know finding decisions when being made and i'm like But does not?

00:37:46: surely this is how we're going to go about this and unfortunately Maybe I've seen too much.

00:37:52: But yeah, it frustrates me a lot and so a lot of my reports like that.

00:37:57: one will always have a plan around good governance.

00:38:00: we'll always have something about stewardship or public resources to say something About.

00:38:05: you know Like the national program And how comprehensive and well thought It should be.

00:38:10: but then people who are most impacted by The policy work That We do must Be centered but they Must Have meaningful participation in these processes and that their participation is consequential.

00:38:23: One of the things you witness again-and-again, are people on front lines doing the absolute most!

00:38:30: We praise them for their strength & resilience in how they show up to us And we give an award with a pat on our back.

00:38:37: But sometimes...we

00:38:38: do

00:38:38: not acknowledge what it takes.

00:38:42: I asked Dr Tee How she held this high stress, high stakes role along everything else That was happening

00:38:49: around.

00:38:49: her Nearly died.

00:38:55: Literally, I mean i was in hospital for six weeks at some point...

00:38:58: I do remember the time we were talking and you're like yay!

00:39:03: In

00:39:03: fact it's so random that you actually messaged me because this is what I've been fighting all my life.

00:39:08: Yes And I think you are so shook Because I was just on a hey girl Hey!

00:39:12: No no no It was..and I'm glad you did.

00:39:15: not many people know these things You know?

00:39:16: I don't speak about them in their way because they had to be involved with work and the rights holders right on whose behalf I think i'm doing this was.

00:39:26: I never wanted to make this in any way about how hard it is, because if its that hard for me to do it imagine trying to live through those kinds of violations or testimonies we were hearing.

00:39:38: so like you know as very away not making things up.

00:39:42: but there's a point where someone said to me come read you are no use to us dead.

00:39:53: And so there was that sort of need, right?

00:39:56: To remind myself.

00:39:58: Reminded myself... That neither me nor my mother are the systems of extractive capitalism and racism.

00:40:05: in colonialism.

00:40:06: We don't colonize nobody.

00:40:07: The fact that I am just me!

00:40:09: ...and i really AM just me.

00:40:10: I think you guys need to understand how just normal and Just a normal person that I Am to be doing such serious things.

00:40:22: I'm just a girl from Coacoa, like i really am.

00:40:26: And I had to remind myself that this is not for me... ...to take on and finish and fix it whatever!

00:40:33: Im human being who's in particular space & time in the history of this world & humanity with particular skills.. ..and right now particular access all which will change & go

00:40:45: anyway!!

00:40:46: And im only my best if my best enough.

00:40:49: save one person.

00:40:51: Praise God.

00:40:54: As the kids on the internet like to say, I'm just a girl.

00:40:58: Oh my gosh!

00:41:00: Let me sit for a minute and pontificate for free here.

00:41:03: Look this one is not gonna cost you extra.

00:41:06: In my wanderings around the social justice slash human rights realm... ...I've seen alot of people who feel they have to die in their work And only wake up when they are a shell-of-a-person and are like… The fuck?

00:41:19: No This cannot

00:41:21: be ME

00:41:21: anymore.

00:41:22: Look, this work is important and so necessary.

00:41:25: But to completely dismantle yourself for it... ...is noble!

00:41:29: Kind of?

00:41:30: but also has a good dose of ego You cannot do at all.

00:41:35: you can not

00:41:35: be the

00:41:36: superhero to save the whole system And much as want too Much.

00:41:40: if think its your hero's journey It really isn't completely on you.

00:41:46: As Doctor T's people told her You are no

00:41:49: use us dead comrade.

00:41:51: You are not the only one who can do this work.

00:41:56: And many people have come before you, Many people stand with today and many will come after you.

00:42:05: So

00:42:05: close that laptop beloved!

00:42:07: Log off for a minute.

00:42:09: switch of your phone go touch some grass.

00:42:12: it really all be

00:42:14: okay That so many other people get to benefit from my advocacy and activism that I remain deeply humbled forever.

00:42:25: But there was a moment where my comrades were like, ah you are not used us dead we need your life.

00:42:32: And To be alive i needed to pause.

00:42:34: i needed listen the body just take mental health break.

00:42:40: This is someone who's fully aware of words & meaning.

00:42:44: But self-harm became a really important thing for me because I had moments of literal, salacious ideas on how to even do it.

00:42:59: Growing up and being born in an apartheid segregated area.

00:43:02: And growing as a child there, then becoming adult and experiencing democratic South Africa but also not feeling truly free right?

00:43:10: Carrying the bitterness of anger and rage through my childhood I think all that rage had to go some way.

00:43:20: So it is that as well My own residual anger at my experience And then the gratitude of, damn I did make it and am here.

00:43:31: So i'm going to do everything I can To ensure that children in this world don't have to go through what at least I had to survive.

00:43:38: so there was a lot happening.

00:43:39: There's still alot happening.

00:43:40: Then being that close to an institution like UN That has power and expectation and authority to do a lot Live through genocide where you've got world leaders who are passive literally chose passiveness.

00:43:56: They imposed it on themselves, made me even more furious and I think that was all of that then merging into one space in to one body where i just could not take anymore as an expert or a doctor feeling like down by the systems that are supposed have my back.

00:44:16: because if im gonna risk it out there you better have mine back cause Im saying things you wish u can say but you know Im saying them.

00:44:23: And you

00:44:23: know, even if you can't tell people that I wish i could say those things.

00:44:27: But You know im saying it The least you could do is have my back.

00:44:30: So to be reminded by organizations and systems That are nothing.

00:44:34: In fact the labor of black women will always be seen as disposable and dispensable.

00:44:39: so Im now at full circle.

00:44:41: I came in rage Full of rage and furious About how these institutions We're never for us.

00:44:48: And I want people to understand that when i say black, you are on your own internalize what is because until we internalizes You think it's a slogan and you'll never strategize about.

00:44:57: how do me change there?

00:45:00: Because now six years later am about To get off this train.

00:45:05: in july my turnier ends than when you

00:45:17: went in?

00:45:18: Than I went into it.

00:45:19: I'm less liked, which is fabulous for me because that means i did the right things and so I feel very accomplished.

00:45:29: but look back with a sense of pride on what was achieved by the mandate be given.

00:45:43: But that's what me, when I commit or commit you know i don't do things thirty percent of my time.

00:45:48: there is no such a thing and go full in And look forward to whatever the next phase Of life will bring.

00:45:55: but it clearly more fighting because im just more furious angry and raging as ever.

00:45:59: Um...but like that Because within face over everything we have In world where we had to face, idk how our could anywhere else.

00:46:06: So being rage Full of rage and anger feels exactly How I need To Be.

00:46:14: Oh my gosh, I cannot even tell you how many more medical things i wanted to put in this episode.

00:46:20: But I had to hold myself back.

00:46:22: if You have a minute go on to social media and just go down the rabbit hole of misogyny And medicine like it will enrage you.

00:46:30: but because I do not Have as Many hours In The day As beyond say?

00:46:34: I have To wrap This up But This Is Just Part One.

00:46:38: In part two, I say goodbye to Dr.

00:46:40: T the special expert and i say hello!

00:46:44: To Dr.

00:46:44: Kloftloff The sexual pleasure

00:46:47: expert.

00:46:49: Check out show notes for all sorts of links that are helpful because we're here not just a good time so I'm going to try and squeeze in everything I couldn't be above Because there was just so much.

00:47:03: As usual, shout out to the Global Unit for Feminism and Gender Democracy of The Heinrich Bohr Foundation that is hosting this podcast.

00:47:11: And my mix-and-mastering team magicians!

00:47:15: They are Rachel Womoto & Sheldon Mutey For that post apocalyptic production.

00:47:23: Thank you also To the newest

00:47:25: person

00:47:26: who is up in this business, Cam.

00:47:28: I will fight you Smith for being a mega-mind and giving me some dope research.

00:47:34: Till the next episode.

00:47:35: give birth squatting in a daisy field train as a doula

00:47:38: And

00:47:38: help your friendship group bring in the Next Generation.

00:47:42: Ask Your Male Gynecologist when The Real Doctor Is Coming.

00:47:45: Then Look Around For A Woman Because You Know What?

00:47:49: It's All Chaos.

00:47:50: Anyway This Not The Apocalypse We Signed Up.