A mess of (un)serious struggles, s*x workers for president and fighting joyless feminism with Ishtar Lakhani

00:00:00: I think for me, it's more about, again, being able to listen to each other and speak to each other and have spaces that cultivate empathy for each other.

00:00:11: I think losing that, if we lose that, then they've won.

00:00:17: If we've lost the ability to laugh and have fun, then they've won.

00:00:22: They've won.

00:00:24: Greetings, earthlings.

00:00:27: It's your girl, Tiffany Kogore Mugo, beaming from the cosmos with another episode of What Is

00:00:33: This

00:00:33: Hot Mess?

00:00:35: So I'm just gonna say at the top of the podcast that I am not feeling well.

00:00:39: So if I'm giving you a little bit of Barry White today, it's because I've got the flu.

00:00:44: But anyway, welcome to another episode of What Is This Hot Mess, a podcast that kicks it with firefeminists from across the globe to have conversations about the fact that the world is hot trash right now.

00:00:58: This podcast is all about diving into the fact that this kind of feels like the end times whilst also chilling with feminists who are helping to keep

00:01:06: the world's

00:01:07: trash at bay by telling the world to pick its fascism off the floor and put away its hate violence and general nonsense.

00:01:16: This episode has the funky and creative weirdo Eshtalakani, who made me promise not to get them cancelled on this podcast with my wild stream of consciousness and my wild questions.

00:01:28: But you know what?

00:01:29: I can't make any promises.

00:01:31: So let's jump right in.

00:01:33: Ishta is a card-carrying feminist, creative activism trainer and freelance radical advocacy strategist who has collaborated with social purpose organizations, movements and networks.

00:01:45: Their true passion is working with people who know that a better world is possible and are open to exploring unconventional ways to make that world a reality.

00:01:55: Ishta is also the founder of Rogue Union, a space which fuses cutting edge courses with the magic of real community.

00:02:04: A place to train your rebel voice.

00:02:07: Their courses are amazing.

00:02:09: Sign up for all of them.

00:02:10: All of them.

00:02:12: She uses a bunch of methodologies from creative activism, design thinking, and systems change with a feminist linchpin.

00:02:20: I know, I know, right?

00:02:21: Sounds fancy, doesn't it?

00:02:23: Because it is.

00:02:24: She does all this to create campaigns that are strategic, engaging, and effective.

00:02:29: Because in her words, I like to win.

00:02:34: We have this segment partly to inspire people to get into feminism and partly just because I'm like a little bit nosy.

00:02:40: Okay, we need to find out how the sausage is made, right?

00:02:45: And knowing how feminists come about means we can make more feminists.

00:02:52: So again, we start the podcast with the feminist origin story where we find out how we get the bad asses that we are blessed with.

00:03:01: We do not walk this journey alone.

00:03:02: Someone moulded us in their image.

00:03:05: In this case, with Ishta, it was both parents who were thigh-deep in a myriad of social justice struggles and thus provided fertile soil for Ishta's feminism to grow.

00:03:16: Probably my feminist origin story kind of started with my origins, i.e.

00:03:21: the birth of me, in the sense that I was raised... during apartheid South Africa in a very political family.

00:03:30: Both my parents were our activists.

00:03:35: They were involved in the anti-apartheid struggle.

00:03:39: They fought their own battles.

00:03:41: And I was raised in a feminist household.

00:03:44: My father and mother both fought for many things, not only for kind of racial justice, but for gender justice as well.

00:03:54: My mother card-carrying Balhuxian.

00:03:58: So I didn't know the words but it became very clear as a young person when encountering the world that I was being raised differently.

00:04:08: Even things like going to my grandmother's house and my grandmother would immediately say, Ishtar come to the kitchen and my older brother could just like chill in the lounge.

00:04:17: Even that I sensed that there was a tension between my parents and my grandmother.

00:04:23: And only when I look back on it, did I realize that tension was like they raised us without gender roles.

00:04:30: So the idea was like, no, Bhaskar also needs to learn to cook.

00:04:34: Or Ishtar is also allowed to cook.

00:04:36: So like from a very young age, I sensed that there was inequality and it had something to do with kind of gender.

00:04:44: and like my parents weren't buying this bullshit and it was only when I got to university that I got like language for it like I read the books and the theory and the stuff.

00:04:55: but I guess for me feminism was definitely a feeling and that started way before I read the books.

00:05:03: My parents did what they loved.

00:05:05: My mother comes from a family of lawyers who decided to be a teacher and study art history, which is not a thing for a good Muslim woman from a good Muslim family to do.

00:05:18: My father did acting and journalism and theology.

00:05:22: They were strange.

00:05:24: They named me Ishtar.

00:05:25: They really did.

00:05:26: They named me Ishtar.

00:05:28: From the beginning, it was destined that I was going to be a weirdo.

00:05:31: I mean, Ishta is the ancient Babylonian goddess of love, war, and fertility.

00:05:37: So Ishta actually ran the brothel for the gods.

00:05:40: Oh, somebody needed

00:05:41: to.

00:05:41: Somebody needed to.

00:05:42: Somebody

00:05:42: needed to

00:05:43: organize that mess.

00:05:46: And so my parents, for example, their marriage was frowned upon because my father came from a Hindu family.

00:05:53: My mother came from a Muslim family.

00:05:55: That was not cool.

00:05:58: decided to do what they wanted for love.

00:06:00: So like I come from a family that do their own thing and are really like guided and fearless and driven by their values.

00:06:11: I just have to remind myself of like being a young girl child and my mother fighting with the school because they wouldn't let me try out for the cricket team because I was very good.

00:06:22: But they only had a boys team and my mother fought with the school so that I could try out.

00:06:27: I tried out I kicked all their asses and then I was like I don't want to be a positive team.

00:06:31: I just wanted to prove that I was better than all of y'all and then I walked away.

00:06:47: So something I've been grappling with professionally is that intergenerational vibe.

00:06:53: I'm in that strange in-between age where I'm not a girl, not yet a woman.

00:07:00: Okay, there was no need for singing.

00:07:01: But like, you know that weird in-between age where some people still think that I'm a youngster, whilst others are like, oh yeah, you know, you're an elder.

00:07:10: Thank you for the path, you.

00:07:11: Thank you for the path.

00:07:12: Why do you?

00:07:14: I think not.

00:07:15: Anyway, so what is a girly to do?

00:07:17: Like in this position, what am I to do when, again, The tension between the generations is something feminism has always grappled with.

00:07:28: That push and pull between the old God and the young whippersnappers nipping at the heels of influence, right?

00:07:36: So we see this especially like in today's world where there's lists, genuine lists with twenty under twenty.

00:07:43: What have you done before twenty?

00:07:45: Some people have done a lot and that's what just makes it all

00:07:48: so

00:07:49: interesting right?

00:07:50: so we've got these twenty under twenty lists thirty under thirty lists and we're not even going to talk about the fact that your phone is constantly like stressing you to upgrade the software.

00:08:00: everything's new.

00:08:01: gotta get a new this.

00:08:02: gotta get a new that.

00:08:03: so that tension and that interaction between the old and the new is arguably like a lot more fraught than it's ever been.

00:08:13: One thing that no one gets you ready for is becoming a Yelda like.

00:08:16: look, okay I'm gonna need all the young feminists to come to the front.

00:08:19: I'm gonna need you to just come to the front so I can warn you because no one warned me that youth is not forever.

00:08:26: I thought I was going to be forever young.

00:08:28: I don't know why this has become a karaoke session.

00:08:31: But like, I thought I was going to be forever young.

00:08:33: But no, the phrase Yelda is one that I learned in a board meeting when I was thinking about occupying sort of this like youth led space.

00:08:41: And somebody was like, no, you're a Yelda.

00:08:43: And frankly, I didn't care for it.

00:08:45: But also I loved it because it gives you that sense of transition, that sense of knowing that you are one thing, but you are becoming another.

00:08:55: that moment when you look around the room and realize that you are the freaking adult.

00:09:01: Frankly, truth be told, actually, I don't care for it.

00:09:06: I had that epiphany, I think when I turned thirty-five, because when I was a youth, kind of my feminist mentors, and that was when I was... In my early twenties, I was the national coordinator for the one and nine campaign and all my kind of feminist mentors were all in their mid thirties and they all kind of really were amazing and like guiding me and shaping me and shaping how I thought about feminism.

00:09:35: and then I hit thirty five and I was like

00:09:38: It's you now.

00:09:38: It's

00:09:38: me now.

00:09:39: It's you now.

00:09:39: Where, where, where are the youths?

00:09:41: I must mentor the, I must be a mentor.

00:09:43: Like I must mentor them tomorrow.

00:09:46: I must find the youths because they shaped so much of like how I've thought about my feminism.

00:09:54: And I realized that, yeah, I am, I am that auntie now.

00:09:57: Okay.

00:09:57: I, you know, I had con.

00:09:59: questions but again stream of consciousness.

00:10:01: right I know you like

00:10:02: look look just love me.

00:10:03: how long have we been friends?

00:10:04: like ten years now at least.

00:10:06: okay I need to also just stop putting my friends on this podcast.

00:10:08: I need to get it together like anyway make

00:10:11: some new friends

00:10:12: make some new ew at this age.

00:10:14: it's a lot of effort it's

00:10:15: so much effort.

00:10:16: but I wanted to ask the intergenerational question.

00:10:19: right as somebody who's still.

00:10:21: you dabbled in the rub.

00:10:22: I feel like you always

00:10:23: claim me where do

00:10:24: I dabble?

00:10:24: everywhere?

00:10:25: I think I can dabble with organizations, movements, within the movement.

00:10:29: Be

00:10:29: specific about you.

00:10:30: You're talking about my promiscuity.

00:10:34: You dabble what?

00:10:35: I'm dabble way.

00:10:36: Okay, yeah.

00:10:37: Okay.

00:10:38: So what do you think about the intergenerational?

00:10:40: What do you think about intergenerational relationships now?

00:10:43: I'll go back to my other questions, but like that one's like a real wild card because I've been thinking about that a lot and how it seems like one of the things that I keep encountering is how people are like, We can't talk to older feminists, right?

00:10:57: But everyone who I've talked to, like from our generation is like, yeah, so there were older feminists.

00:11:01: They guided me.

00:11:02: I have the same origin stories, like looking up to people who they were like, thirty five, thirty six at the time.

00:11:07: I'm like,

00:11:09: we can make

00:11:09: it if we try.

00:11:11: But now I seem to keep encountering people who are like, we can't talk to the oldest.

00:11:15: So what do you think as a newly minted card carrying auntie?

00:11:21: That's an almost elder.

00:11:22: I know I was also, I was kind of guest lecturing at the African Feminist Freedom School and at the break, one of the participants came to me and put their hand on my shoulder in a very sweet way and said, Ishtar, thank you so much for your contribution.

00:11:41: This is why we need older feminists like you.

00:11:47: And so I decided there and then.

00:11:50: I need to stay in my lane.

00:11:53: That evening I went out to dinner with the other kind of facilitators and lecturers and then as I was going back to my room I heard joy and drinking and jubilation at the pool and I was like, is this my place?

00:12:08: This is not your place Ishtar.

00:12:10: You have been there.

00:12:11: You have done the things.

00:12:12: You have made the bad decisions.

00:12:14: You need to go to your room.

00:12:16: and just go to your room and like have a cup of tea and watch some series and go to bed and like show up for the morning session fresh non-hungover not having made bad decisions because that is not your place anymore Ishtar and that is okay.

00:12:31: and there was part of me that died alone inside but I knew that that that pull action was not for me anymore and I showed up in the morning and they all came in cheapishly hungover having made terrible decisions.

00:12:42: and I was fresh and lovely and did my did my contribution.

00:12:47: I mean, it's, it's a struggle because it just, I think we're losing the ability to listen.

00:12:57: Like truly deeply listen.

00:13:00: We've become very impatient.

00:13:02: We've become very, I say speak with the royal we meaning me as well.

00:13:07: Like so much of our lives, so much of how we orientate ourselves is so kind of hyper individualized.

00:13:15: that like when you're talking to someone you're just and they're talking to you you're just waiting for your turn to give your opinion and what you think and your thoughts and so you're not actually listening.

00:13:27: and I find that struggle works both ways in terms of kind of intergenerational relationships.

00:13:35: in that how do we How do we appreciate young people and what they offer and their energy and their insights and their thoughts at the same time acknowledging that we have people that have walked these paths and also have wisdom and thoughts?

00:13:51: And so I think it really is about being able to listen and appreciate people for their experiences and not Yeah, not Not playing for lack of a better word, it's like the oppression Olympics.

00:14:08: That's so true.

00:14:09: Who has out-oppressioned who and who has out-suffered who?

00:14:12: and that's the person who deserves kind of the room to speak.

00:14:15: but really acknowledging that we all can learn from each other and sometimes it's also good to stay in our lane.

00:14:20: Sometimes it's also good to acknowledge that the pool is not for you and that is fine.

00:14:25: You have so many other contributions to make.

00:14:28: that's not at the pool and so I've been finding my non-pool spaces.

00:14:32: for lack of a better word.

00:14:33: What are our non-pool spaces?

00:14:35: Because I had that recently as well.

00:14:38: I went to a conference and it was in bots and we were leaving the next day and all the, and you know, queer conferences can get real wild real quick.

00:14:48: So quick.

00:14:49: Too quick, some might say.

00:14:50: Some

00:14:51: might say a little too fast, right?

00:14:54: And so like, you know, it was a good time.

00:14:56: It was the evening.

00:14:56: I went to bed again at a decent hour.

00:14:58: Like yourself.

00:15:00: Look at you.

00:15:01: there were some people who were coming to the bus.

00:15:03: we were leaving at six thirty.

00:15:04: no five thirty a.m.

00:15:06: right some people came to the bus having not slept still smelling of booze the booze they had and i was just like

00:15:13: but

00:15:13: there's a part of me that

00:15:14: does

00:15:15: want but i'm like.

00:15:16: i know i can't stay up till five thirty.

00:15:18: what am i doing up till five thirty?

00:15:20: who who's amongst us is up to a fight.

00:15:23: So that's.

00:15:23: that's also part of the work, okay?

00:15:25: Like leaving

00:15:26: the pool space.

00:15:27: No, but also leaving the pool space.

00:15:29: but also the pool space is part of the work as like young queer people, like you don't often get spaces.

00:15:36: You often get pool spaces.

00:15:37: So when you get pool spaces, you must enjoy.

00:15:40: You must enjoy.

00:15:40: Like they try to take our pool spaces away from us.

00:15:43: Constantly.

00:15:44: Always.

00:15:44: So like if we want to step in five in the morning and hang out with our people and have a good time, also there is space for that.

00:15:50: So for me, it's also like realizing that there's different forms of work that need to be done.

00:15:56: There's tons of different pieces to this work.

00:15:59: If we're gonna fight for our freedom, we need to be fighting on all fronts.

00:16:03: And that means, yes, in the early morning sessions and the panel discussions and those things, but yes, also at the pool.

00:16:10: That is also part of the struggle.

00:16:12: That is

00:16:13: part of the struggle.

00:16:14: And so all of it is important.

00:16:16: And that's the thing, I think also kind of... trying to fit our fight or our struggle into kind of one modality or one type of like.

00:16:25: this is what the struggle is and if you're not fighting it like this then you're not you're not doing it right or you're not part of it or you're not part of our struggle.

00:16:33: and so acknowledging this is a fight that needs to be fought on many fronts and the pool is a front.

00:16:39: the pool is a front and that's a quote put that on a t-shirt

00:16:46: feminist fronts.

00:16:48: The feminist fight can be fought in many different ways and we need to release ourselves from the oppressive binds of tradition.

00:16:57: I am a personal advocate for the principle of joy and good vibes and finding the sexy and fun in the midst of it.

00:17:06: If you haven't figured it out by now, this is like the whole vibe of this podcast.

00:17:11: Are you even listening to the podcast?

00:17:14: Me and Ishta are on the same wavelength.

00:17:16: We're in the same WhatsApp group.

00:17:18: So much so that I have a ten-year-old beef with somebody who once accused me, behind my back by the way, right?

00:17:24: Say it to my face next time.

00:17:26: That's all I'm saying.

00:17:27: Say it to my face.

00:17:29: But anyway, ten years ago, this person accused me at playing, at being an activist because all of the work that I did was shiny and bright and colorful and kind of had a boo vibe to it.

00:17:41: There are so many ways to fight the good fight and play the game.

00:17:45: Don't be shading me because mine is the advocacy equivalent of a sparkly unicorn wearing fishnets.

00:17:51: Magical, but a little confusing, right?

00:17:55: But somehow you know what?

00:17:57: It works.

00:17:58: Don't worry about it.

00:17:59: Mind your business, okay?

00:18:00: Mind your business.

00:18:05: I know that's one thing I struggled with a lot when Holler started, right?

00:18:10: Not doing the fight in the right way.

00:18:13: I had, and look, the person know what they did.

00:18:16: Or maybe they don't forget, but I have kept this slight for over a decade.

00:18:20: Oh, my friend.

00:18:20: Yes, Bebs.

00:18:21: We need to let go.

00:18:23: No.

00:18:24: Absolutely not.

00:18:24: It will be good for you.

00:18:26: I'm sure.

00:18:26: It will be character building.

00:18:28: Absolutely not.

00:18:29: This person, and I remember it was over a decade ago because of how long I've lived in Jobib.

00:18:34: But they were like, oh no, Hala Africa is cool, but Tiff's not a real activist.

00:18:39: Bebs.

00:18:41: Bebs.

00:18:41: Who is this person?

00:18:42: Ah, no, no.

00:18:43: I'll tell you once the camera stops, the mic

00:18:45: stops really.

00:18:45: You know I like a vendetta.

00:18:47: No, okay, we are not

00:18:48: collectively in this vendetta.

00:18:50: But it was just like this whole case of like.

00:18:51: we were doing play-play work.

00:18:53: And now it's all very well and good for everyone because everyone's doing body positivity.

00:18:57: Everybody's doing bodily autonomy.

00:18:59: Everybody's doing sex positivity.

00:19:01: But over a decade later, I still keep that slight.

00:19:05: But yeah, you see, but you know, what's it?

00:19:07: The pool is a, the pool is a front.

00:19:10: Yeah,

00:19:10: here we go.

00:19:12: But I mean, this is the struggle that I have all day, every day in the sense that like my big stick is like, I love creativity.

00:19:20: I love joy.

00:19:21: I love playfulness.

00:19:22: I love humor.

00:19:23: I think all of these things are vital for effective activism and effective advocacy.

00:19:30: And you need to do those things.

00:19:31: And so like, yes, unpopular opinion that, yes, joy, fun, all of this is needed.

00:19:39: The pool.

00:19:39: The pool is a front.

00:19:41: We are at our own type of pool.

00:19:43: We are.

00:19:43: We are a type of pool having a good time, but also doing the work because it needs to get done.

00:19:50: Find out where you should be kicking it.

00:19:52: Find your front.

00:19:54: That's what Ishta did.

00:19:55: Now, when we were prepping for this episode, I asked Ishta because look, I do do a little bit of background with this.

00:20:00: Okay.

00:20:01: I'm not just like out here messing about.

00:20:03: I do do some background.

00:20:04: So anyway, I was asking Ishta, like, what do you do?

00:20:06: Because as a homie, I knew vaguely what she did.

00:20:11: But like every time I asked, like now when I was locking in for the episode, I'd ask, what is it that you do?

00:20:16: And I'd give an option and she'd be like, no, I'd give another option and she'd be like, no, I guess the couple of times in each time I got a kinder.

00:20:27: So what I'm using this time to do with all of you is to figure out What my homie actually does?

00:20:38: People often ask me, what do you do?

00:20:39: I'm like, very little, as little as possible.

00:20:43: But what I do, so for work, like my work life, my passion is really working with organizations, individuals, movements, people to support them to do their advocacy.

00:21:00: more creatively.

00:21:01: So their activism and their advocacy in a more creative fashion.

00:21:05: So some people call it creative activism.

00:21:08: I struggle because that often falls into kind of the big language of art.

00:21:13: And I don't I don't identify as a artist.

00:21:16: It sounds like you're about to give us a paintbrush immediately.

00:21:18: Yeah, no.

00:21:19: So that's the thing.

00:21:20: So like for me, it's like anyone can apply their creativity to their activism.

00:21:26: Like you can be creative about how you do strategic impact litigation.

00:21:30: You can be creative in the way you do lobbying.

00:21:32: You can be creative in the way if everyone thinks creativity only applies to direct action and protest.

00:21:38: But actually how you approach your strategy can be done in a creative way.

00:21:46: You gotta keep it fresh, my people.

00:21:47: Like any good relationship, you gotta find ways of keeping your activism spicy.

00:21:53: A little fuego, a little caliente, if I may.

00:21:57: In a creative way though, like in a creative way.

00:21:59: And try to keep it joyful, please.

00:22:02: Oh my gosh, just try.

00:22:04: In this edition of Fight Me in the Comments, Ishta speaks about just that.

00:22:09: For those of you who just arrived, like you just arrived to the podcast clearly, you don't know what Fight Me in the Comments is.

00:22:15: because you just arrived, right?

00:22:16: So for those of you who just joined us on this wild journey of this podcast, bite me in the comments.

00:22:24: Is that part of the podcast where we say the thing that will have people side eyeing you?

00:22:30: Where you take what you have written in the privacy of your notes app and bring it out for the

00:22:35: whole

00:22:36: world to see.

00:22:38: It's all about hot takes.

00:22:39: Side note, Ishta did not know what a hot take was and I'm judging her.

00:22:44: I'm judging her, right?

00:22:45: For some of those who are old-school cats out there, a hot take is what was previously known as an unpopular opinion.

00:22:52: But

00:22:52: actually, no, it's a little bit more complicated than that.

00:22:56: It's one of those that will get people tussling in the comments.

00:22:59: Ishta's particular fight me.

00:23:00: in the comments sentiment centers around the fact that we do not need to be joyless to show that we are actually getting shit done.

00:23:08: You can be smiling and smashing oppressive systems all at the same time.

00:23:16: I mean, the one I fight, the one I fight often about with a lot of people is around, especially clients, is the kind of spectrum, imaginary spectrum they've created between joy and impact.

00:23:30: And they were like, you can't have fun and have impact.

00:23:34: I mean, this is something that Chris and I have to butt heads all the time.

00:23:39: I mean, I've proved it in the campaigning world, like you can have joy and have fun and then be effective.

00:23:44: But for example, when we facilitate retreats, there are people that haven't hired us because we are like non-negotiable.

00:23:51: We started ten.

00:23:53: We have long lunches and these are like high level people, like important grownups.

00:23:59: We started ten.

00:24:01: We have long lunches.

00:24:02: We finish at five, six o'clock at the latest.

00:24:05: We don't do any working lunches.

00:24:09: We have tea breaks all the time.

00:24:12: we really focus on time, relaxation, like deep hanging out, and we have to fight with people incessantly about it.

00:24:22: Like, often when we present our agendas, people go in another direction.

00:24:29: And it's something we're not gonna compromise on because people think, how can you do, you're only working in inverted commas for like four, five hours a day.

00:24:39: How can you achieve anything by that?

00:24:41: And then the clients that do let us facilitate the way we want to, by the end of it, they're like, wow, we did not know we could achieve so much in so little time.

00:24:54: And so that, yeah, that for a lot of organizational leaders, that's a very unpopular opinion of like, yeah, we'll facilitate your strategic planning, but.

00:25:04: These are the parameters.

00:25:05: Ten o'clock start is nice.

00:25:07: Hey?

00:25:08: Yeah.

00:25:09: And we usually organize some like morning activities and things for them if they want.

00:25:14: We do long lunches like hour and a half, two hour lunches sometimes.

00:25:18: That's luxurious.

00:25:20: You see,

00:25:21: you see, that's the problem.

00:25:22: People calling it luxurious.

00:25:24: You're part of the problem.

00:25:25: I'm

00:25:25: a part of the problem.

00:25:27: It shouldn't be a luxury.

00:25:30: It's a necessity.

00:25:32: You should be like, oh, that makes sense.

00:25:34: I'm part of the problem.

00:25:35: You're part of the problem.

00:25:36: OK.

00:25:36: Because neuroscience tells us in order to be able to absorb new information, different ways of working, like we need to be in a state of relaxation.

00:25:47: We need to be able to trust the people in our room.

00:25:49: How do you build that?

00:25:50: It's time, time with people.

00:25:52: And so if you give people that time, when you're in sessions, it moves so quickly.

00:26:00: What's this?

00:26:01: You can only move at the speed of trust.

00:26:05: We gotta try new things and add extra razzle-dazzle to our work sometimes and change up the way we think.

00:26:10: And that's a part of Ishta's job.

00:26:13: Facilitating spaces where NGOs ask her to come and help them plan and strategize ways in which they can do better.

00:26:20: So she's very much in the space to be able to judge people from on high.

00:26:25: When I tell you what you're doing is trash.

00:26:27: I'm a hater when she tells you what you're doing its trash.

00:26:30: It's facilitating strategic planning to bring about tangible change that moves towards growth.

00:26:37: She thus has insight into some of the failings of the NGO space and one such failing is the fact that the way we do our collective work has an absence of organizational care and creativity.

00:26:50: I mean there's a lot that's been written around the kind of NGOization of politics and how it's become part of this kind of system.

00:27:04: And it's kind of being co-opted by the system.

00:27:07: And so for me, I guess some of the struggles that I see is, oh, my partner's gonna love this, because she wrote an entire thesis on this, is around, no, it's around care in organizations.

00:27:23: It's around... caring for human beings and allowing people to bring their whole selves into a space.

00:27:32: I think the more we've kind of professionalized activism, the more the humanity has been taken away from it, the more we can't show up as our fullest selves, which means we can't be creative because creativity means that we must bring our quirky selves.

00:27:48: It means that like, I don't know, the hobbies that I do on the side, are relevant to activism.

00:27:55: Like, if you look at, I love, I love the example of Amnesty's longer table campaign, where they were looking at reframing the issue of migrant and refugee rights.

00:28:07: And they decided part of their campaign is what happens when more people come, you build a longer table, you don't build a higher wall.

00:28:15: And so part of their campaign was build a longer table, have a dinner party, invite people.

00:28:20: So they made like cooking.

00:28:22: part of the activism.

00:28:24: And so for me, it's like, how, how are we doing that in our spaces?

00:28:28: How are we acknowledging people as kind of like whole human beings and saying, what are the other elements of your life?

00:28:35: Let's not try and kind of do this very false separation of the personal and the political, the, your work life and your home life, because that's, that's a really false distinction to make.

00:28:50: And so if we create spaces where people can show up and be human, then they'll innately be more creative, which means we'll be more effective.

00:29:02: And so, yes, I can go into kind of the theory around NGOization and donor politics and all of that, but I think for me it's more about, again, being able to listen to each other and speak to each other and have spaces that cultivate empathy for each other.

00:29:21: I think losing that.

00:29:24: If we lose that, then they've won.

00:29:27: If we've lost the ability to laugh and have fun,

00:29:30: then they've won.

00:29:31: They have won.

00:29:32: They've won.

00:29:32: Oh my days, they have won.

00:29:37: In order to talk the talk, Ishta actually had to walk the walk.

00:29:41: In their journey, Ishta found a space that allowed her to move in the spirit of care and creativity that she longed for.

00:29:48: The magical land of sweat.

00:29:50: Make a difference and find the fun.

00:29:57: My journey to sweat started before I was actually at sweat.

00:30:00: It was still when I was the coordinator of the one in nine campaign.

00:30:03: There were members and sweat was one of the member organizations and so I've always heard about them and I always love the work that they do and I always I didn't only love the work that they do, I respected the way that they did it.

00:30:17: So as a feminist organization.

00:30:19: So Sweat is the sex worker's education advocacy task force.

00:30:22: They had to say that we can't speak acronym.

00:30:25: People must know what we are talking about.

00:30:27: But

00:30:27: this will be edited.

00:30:28: I was going to put the acronym, but it's fine.

00:30:33: Because Ishtar won't let me do my damn job.

00:30:36: She has already told you what Sweat stands for.

00:30:39: But I'm going to do it again because this is my podcast.

00:30:42: And I'm going to tell you what happens and what things stand for.

00:30:45: Anyway, what is SWEAT?

00:30:47: SWEAT is the Sex Worker Education and Advocacy Task Force.

00:30:51: It is a thirty year old organization that advocates for the decriminalization of sex work.

00:30:57: The focus of the organization is to create a vision of South Africa where people who choose to sell sex are able to enjoy freedom, rights and human dignity.

00:31:07: The truth of the matter is sex work is work.

00:31:09: Fight yourself in the comments.

00:31:11: Fight yourself on another podcast.

00:31:13: This is not the episode for that debate.

00:31:16: But one piece of knowledge I will drop because despite the chaos, this is a learning space my people, is that the difference between legislation and decriminalization is this.

00:31:28: Legislation and decriminalization are two distinct legislative models, yet they're often conflated and confused with each other.

00:31:37: Folks also think that legislation is the middle ground or some sort of compromise between criminalization and decriminalization, but this also isn't true.

00:31:47: What

00:31:48: is true is that legislation is a legislative model of sex work in which governments introduce specific laws and regulations that allow certain forms of sex work to take place under controlled conditions.

00:32:04: Decriminalization of sex work, on the other hand, focuses on the removal of all laws and regulations that criminalize and or penalize various aspects of sex work.

00:32:16: This includes its sale, purchase, advertisement, and the involvement of third parties such as managers, brothelkeepers, etc.

00:32:26: Unlike legislation, Decrim does not introduce new laws to regulate or restrict the sex industry.

00:32:33: Instead, sex work is covered under existing occupational health and safety laws which apply to other industries, thus adhering to the cognitive framework that sex work is, in fact,

00:32:44: work.

00:32:45: This is the vibe that sweat pushes for, and the pursuit of this is where Ishta got to flex her experimental muscle.

00:32:55: So I've always known about their work.

00:32:58: And then I moved to Cape Town because of love, as one does.

00:33:02: And I saw there was an ad, but it was for like media officer.

00:33:06: And I was like, I'm like, I can fake a lot of things, but working with the media, is that something I really want to do?

00:33:12: No, no, no.

00:33:13: As desperate as I was to work with sweat.

00:33:16: And then a job came up, human rights and lobbying officer.

00:33:18: And I'm like, I know about human rights.

00:33:20: What's lobbying again?

00:33:21: Oh, it's convincing people to do things.

00:33:24: OK, I can do that.

00:33:25: Sure.

00:33:26: And so I started working with SWIT as already knowing it as an organization that I just deeply respect for the work they do in the world, but also internally how they operate as an organization.

00:33:39: And of course, fell in love with everyone, everything.

00:33:42: I would say once a sweater, always a sweater.

00:33:47: you never really leave the movement.

00:33:49: And so I ended up working there for a number of years and becoming the advocacy manager.

00:33:56: And SWET is an organization that also marches to the beat of its own drum.

00:34:01: I think partly because of the history of leadership of the organization, but also because sex workers are kind of always been at the kind of periphery of all the movements in terms of like when you're talking about kind of advocating for queer rights for example like I know it was like sex workers are part of that movement but they were kind of thrown to the side going.

00:34:28: oh no you talk too controversial.

00:34:30: let's let's let's prioritize kind of queer rights first and then and then we'll deal with you.

00:34:34: and so they've always been put on the periphery.

00:34:37: and I think as a result working with the sex workers movement is just such an amazingly vibrant space to be a part of because it doesn't have a lot of that like NGO nonsense and like the general movement nonsense because like they're the underdogs and we're always the underdogs and so there is just a scrappiness to the organization and also because of its leadership and appreciation for creativity and art and the value that creativity and art adds to activism and advocacy.

00:35:15: And so I had a lot of free reign there to work with my department and like just cause some trouble and try some different approaches.

00:35:27: And Thankfully, they let me get away with it.

00:35:32: But they let me get away with it because it showed results.

00:35:35: Because at the end of the day, when we talk about creativity and activism, it's not creativity and fun for fun's sake.

00:35:42: At the end of the day, we are trying to achieve something serious.

00:35:44: We are trying to decriminalize sex work.

00:35:46: This is something we are trying to do.

00:35:48: And so it's not necessarily about, oh, let's do something that goes viral or gets a lot of likes.

00:35:55: I'm like, for why?

00:35:58: so that it can lead us closer to Decrim.

00:35:59: So how does the fun and creativity and the joy and the mischief making, how does it align with our kind of strategic objectives?

00:36:10: How do we use all those things to win?

00:36:13: And so sweat became such an important... I don't know, playground to a certain degree for me because I just, I love the people I worked with.

00:36:25: I love the minds and the openness to different ways of working that we managed to move the struggle far in a very short time with our kind of artistic and creative approaches to our activism.

00:36:42: And we had a lot of fun while doing it, which is also something that other organizations were like, what's going on?

00:36:49: We get the least funding.

00:36:53: At the end of the day, when you look at the statistics around the abuse of sex workers, Um, if you look at kind of an intersectional approach to, to activism, like sex workers are often the most marginalized in terms of kind of sexual orientation, race, gender, poverty levels, all of that.

00:37:12: And they're like, but you guys looking like you're having a good

00:37:15: time.

00:37:16: It looks like things are happening.

00:37:18: It

00:37:18: looks like things are happening and you're having a good time.

00:37:20: What's that about?

00:37:21: And I think for me, that kind of just unleash this idea that like you can't.

00:37:27: Joy does not take away from impact and that you can be seriously funny.

00:37:32: Because at the same time, we were having all this fun, but also we were providing legal support.

00:37:38: We were providing kind of direct, we started a sex worker clinic.

00:37:43: We were providing frontline services.

00:37:45: We were getting people out of jail.

00:37:47: Of course, I had to ask for one example of how Ishtar's fire advocacy made the world sweat.

00:37:56: I enjoyed this swag campaign.

00:37:57: That was... good fun.

00:37:59: It was during our national election and I was at a meeting and with a whole bunch of people working in different sectors education health etc.

00:38:10: and everyone was saying oh no I asked whether anyone was running any campaigns during the elections.

00:38:17: And they were like, no, we're going to lay low.

00:38:19: As most organizations do sometimes, because of the media chaos, also you don't want to invest too much because they might be a political reshuffle and all the energy you spend working with one political party or a couple of people, they're gone.

00:38:32: And so everyone was like, we're just going to lay low until the dust settles after the election, and then we're going to launch our campaigns.

00:38:38: and I really thought that this was a missed opportunity.

00:38:42: and I had recently watched the documentary which told the story of a sex worker who actually ran for political office.

00:38:51: and so we were like if we run for president and then we looked into all the things you had to do and we're like oh that's a lot because we're like oh let's register a political party let's do a thing.

00:39:04: And we were like, okay, no, that's a lot.

00:39:07: Ain't nobody got time or money for this.

00:39:09: But what if we ran a fake campaign?

00:39:11: Like, people would believe us if we do it right.

00:39:14: And so we came up with swag.

00:39:16: The Sex Worker's Action Group.

00:39:18: And our candidate was Dudzi Ledlamini, an incredible activist.

00:39:26: We did the things.

00:39:26: So we got proper posters laid out.

00:39:29: We made them.

00:39:30: We put them around.

00:39:31: We only made about a hundred or so.

00:39:33: We put them around Cape Town and took pictures of them from different angles and then put it on social media.

00:39:40: Oh, did you see this in PE?

00:39:41: Did you see the center?

00:39:42: But did you see this?

00:39:44: So it looked like we were everywhere.

00:39:46: We shot a very cheap but very good campaign video.

00:39:50: We got a magnet made of our swag logo, like a vinyl magnet that we could put on any vehicle.

00:39:57: So when Dudu was invited to go anywhere, we would order her an Uber Black and we would ask the driver if we could put the vinyl on.

00:40:04: So it looks like she's showing up in this like really swank vehicle.

00:40:08: And we pretended to kind of run for president.

00:40:13: And it was amazing, the amount of The amount of love we got was way, we were ready for backlash, and the amount of love we got was so much more than the amount of hate.

00:40:23: And this surprised us because we were like, whoa, clearly South Africa.

00:40:30: has appetite for something different.

00:40:32: Like people are eating this up, they're loving it, we're getting invited into spaces, people are buying it number one.

00:40:38: And so we're going to all the different spaces, speaking on the platforms, and then the two largest opposition parties, so the EFF and the DA, both put looking into sexual legislation in their election manifestos.

00:40:51: something that had never happened before.

00:40:53: and people all perzed off when they got to the polls and they didn't see swag there which was great.

00:40:59: and for me like it takes me back to to what I was saying around.

00:41:06: um yeah it's all.

00:41:07: it's all great having fun.

00:41:09: we had so much fun running that campaign.

00:41:11: it was so high energy we were not burning out.

00:41:14: um it was cheap.

00:41:16: funders love that it was.

00:41:17: we only printed.

00:41:18: yeah we printed a couple of posters a little bit of t-shirts and shot a really cheapy video.

00:41:22: that's it.

00:41:23: so it was a really cheap campaign really effective.

00:41:26: but what was the point?

00:41:27: it was not fun.

00:41:28: just for fun sake we got our case in the the different parties election manifestos.

00:41:36: So at the end of the day, there was a tangible change that aligned with our strategy that took us closer to decriminalization.

00:41:42: And so for me, that there's always been a really good example of how using creativity, using your imagination, having fun, like being silly, actually led to kind of amazing impact for the movement.

00:41:59: Sex worker running for president as a form of advocacy, your fave could never.

00:42:04: But this wasn't always Ishtar's path.

00:42:07: Being a titan of turning things around doesn't mean you always had your shit together, especially when it came to how you thought about things.

00:42:15: It doesn't mean you always had the right politics and thinking.

00:42:19: Ishta didn't start out the sort of person who could move the needle on sex workers' rights in the way she has, more specifically within the decrim realm.

00:42:27: Because back in the day, secret time, she was a hardcore abolitionist

00:42:35: scandal.

00:42:37: That is her oops, my bad moment.

00:42:41: Just so you know, abolitionism is a framework that aims to end the sex work industry by criminalizing the purchase of sex, decriminalizing those who sell sex and providing support services to help them exit the industry.

00:42:54: I saw one particular paper link this framework to the idea of the myth of female modesty and another speak here about how this idea did not focus on the real problem when looking at the violence because the truth is society allows for violence against all women not just sex workers and ones deemed immoral or not worthy of protecting.

00:43:15: So making this a sex worker problem is a fallacy.

00:43:19: Ishta was firmly in the abolitionist camp.

00:43:23: Until she wasn't, Shem.

00:43:24: Like, look, she pivoted and now she's here.

00:43:28: She had people around her who showed her a different way of thinking.

00:43:31: And now, like I said, we are here.

00:43:34: With a conversation and a little collective care, Ishtar changed her tune.

00:43:38: And that's what this segment is all about.

00:43:40: Grace, with a little help from community, this week's problematic fave could be next week's feminist icon.

00:43:50: Oh, my feminist has been so trashy so many times.

00:43:55: I can't even, the whole of my twenties.

00:44:01: No, I guess for me, feminism is evolution and growth.

00:44:06: I'm one hundred percent sure.

00:44:07: When I'm in my sixties listening to this now, I'm going to cringe at some of the trashy things I've probably said right now.

00:44:13: So like, evolution is growth and we must, we must evolve.

00:44:19: But let me see if I can pull out a spectacular one.

00:44:24: Oh, yes, I got a good one, especially with the now that we're talking about all the work I did at sweat.

00:44:31: Yeah, in Varsity, my first readings, like when I got into the theory of feminism, I was all up in Andrea Dworkin, Katyn McKinnon, like the radical feminists who believe that there was writing around kind of like all sex with men is rape and like basically they would.

00:44:53: many of them were abolitionists so they believed in the abolition of and I think they used the term prostitution because they didn't believe that sex work was work and I was that person.

00:45:04: I was like abolitionism in university.

00:45:08: And I was a card-carrying feminist.

00:45:11: I did the thing that you must do, which is, you know, I bought myself a pair of Doc Martens, and I shaved a mohawk, and I did all those things.

00:45:19: But then I grew up.

00:45:21: And then I grew up and I read more, and I learned more, and I spoke more, and I listened more.

00:45:26: And there, lo and behold, working at a sex worker organization, fighting for the decriminalization of sex work.

00:45:33: That is me doing an entire... And it surprised a lot of people.

00:45:38: And it's a story I've told before.

00:45:41: I think I told it to a bunch of students because they asked similar questions around abolitionism.

00:45:47: And I was very clear.

00:45:48: I was an abolitionist in university.

00:45:51: That was my position.

00:45:52: And I thought it was educated and informed.

00:45:55: And I did the work.

00:45:57: But there's always more work to be done.

00:45:59: And there's also more speaking to people to be done.

00:46:02: And so it took me... talking to people, growing, learning to be like, oh, actually, no, I'm very much in support rather for the decriminalization of sex work.

00:46:14: If you haven't clocked it by now, Ishta has brilliant ideas about how folks can get their eternal shit together.

00:46:22: Funky, innovative, long lunch fueled ideas.

00:46:26: And it does not stop there.

00:46:28: It doesn't just stop with the facilitation.

00:46:30: Before I let Ishta go, I had to ask her about her latest offering, Rogue Union.

00:46:35: A description found on the website says Rogue Union fuses cutting edge courses with the magic of real community, built for misfits and movement makers, done with the old tired ways of thinking.

00:46:50: These folks are using neuroscience to figure out the best ways to do things.

00:46:55: And the courses have such funky names like Rogue Hope, Rogue Campaigning, and Rogue Futurism.

00:47:01: Like, you know, you're doing stuff and you're like... A superhero.

00:47:05: That's the vibe you get from the website.

00:47:08: The platform is one that not only teaches you how to activate your voice, but also has the added element of bringing you into the rogue union community.

00:47:19: Because that's how you, if you want to go far, go together.

00:47:23: If you want to go quickly, go alone.

00:47:26: I messed that up a little bit, but you get the idea.

00:47:28: This isn't a paid ad, by the way.

00:47:30: Like, this is not a paid ad, but you do need to get yourself a course.

00:47:34: Like, I genuinely believe in the platform.

00:47:36: That's why I'm putting it on blast in this space.

00:47:40: Get your fellow activists a course.

00:47:42: You know, hell, get your arch nemesis a course so you can go head to head nicely.

00:47:46: Do it because they are really that good.

00:47:53: The Rogue Union is a learning platform.

00:47:58: for change makers, but I think for me, the difference with Rogue Union and other spaces, it's a learning and community platform.

00:48:07: So the idea is... Yes, we can learn.

00:48:11: you can do workshops.

00:48:12: You can go.

00:48:12: you can go to Coursera You can go to Udemy.

00:48:14: There's also a place where you can learn.

00:48:15: the problem is When it comes to practicing the skills that you learn to really get it ingrained in you and to actually Have it affect how you do your life.

00:48:24: You need community.

00:48:26: We need to do this in community.

00:48:27: like if we're making these changes and we're trying for these big swings to change the world We need a squad.

00:48:32: And so the idea was we're all feeling a little bit isolated and we all feel like we need a squad.

00:48:39: And so Rogue Union is hopefully going to be our answer to that.

00:48:44: So having one space that people can come find their people, learn new skills, have fun, have fun and kind of take on those issues together.

00:48:59: And the reason I mean, there's many reasons.

00:49:01: we started it.

00:49:03: As you just said, I don't like to pontificate.

00:49:06: I like to do the things.

00:49:07: I don't like to think too long, because then I'll talk myself out of things.

00:49:11: But myself and my, I call it my work wife, Chris Gomez, we travel around the world and give workshops to organizations, communities, et cetera, on different things.

00:49:24: Hers is around futures thinking, me, creative activism.

00:49:28: And we found people would leave the workshops really excited, really excited, really pumped up.

00:49:34: Oh my goodness, I'm going to do things differently.

00:49:36: I'm going to change the world.

00:49:37: This is going to be amazing.

00:49:39: And then a couple of weeks later, you see them doing the exact same thing that they've been doing the whole time.

00:49:47: And so it became very disheartening because we know the kind of impact that is possible.

00:49:55: And then we were like, OK, so how do we get that impact?

00:49:57: And we realized community was the missing element because we found when we worked with organizations and accompanied them over a long period of time, that's when we saw the most radical change.

00:50:08: But we can't do that for everyone.

00:50:11: And actually, there's other people that could be best placed to accompany other people.

00:50:15: And so also, we need a place where all our people can hang and meet each other to support each other to do this work.

00:50:21: And so that's how kind of.

00:50:23: rogue union was born is let's find a place.

00:50:27: it's a total experiment.

00:50:28: we're going to see how it goes.

00:50:30: um it's also a different model for doing things.

00:50:34: so we've taken no funding.

00:50:36: it's being funded out of chris and my savings because we were like.

00:50:40: we want to be agile we want to be responsive we want to be able to do what is needed and in order to do that we do need freedom And this is what we need for freedom.

00:50:51: So it's also a new model in the sense that it's a financial model that's based on membership, as opposed to like a donor paying for a thing.

00:51:00: But we're hoping that it becomes that space where you can go and hang out and learn things and meet other rogues over the, our dream for the next kind of three years is that three, five, however many years is that we keep on adding.

00:51:16: different courses and communities.

00:51:18: So right now we've launched our experiment with three.

00:51:20: So it's mine on campaigning, Chris's on futures, and Thomas Coombs on hope-based communications.

00:51:28: So it's a great, it's a great, it's a great package.

00:51:30: You can have access to all three of them.

00:51:32: Next, early next year, we're launching one on leadership.

00:51:35: with Tako Ori who is amazing and the idea is we grow, we grow when we grow and all the skills that you need and it becomes one space where you know you can go to to get kind of the cutting-edge skills that you need for changemaking.

00:51:48: because also sometimes you don't know what you don't know.

00:51:51: Like I didn't know I needed futures until Chris told me about it and I attended one of her workshops and I was like This is so useful.

00:51:59: So like also we don't know what we don't know.

00:52:01: So it's very nice to have a space to say like if you don't know what you don't know and you want to learn something new that will really help you.

00:52:09: Here is a space.

00:52:10: Here is

00:52:11: a space.

00:52:11: Here is a space to find your people.

00:52:13: I love the fact that it's membership and I love the fact that you actually give tears of membership, right?

00:52:20: Because it's just like you because you understand that some people are not earning the same as some other people, but everybody wants the same skills.

00:52:27: I love that so much.

00:52:29: It's so hard to be a gentle capitalist.

00:52:31: It is really very tricky.

00:52:32: And all

00:52:33: these platforms don't also allow you the flexibility to be a gentle capitalist, because we do need to make some money to keep it going, but also we don't want to be dicks about it.

00:52:42: And so making that balance is really important to us, because we want it to be accessible, but we also want it to run, but also... the rich people must give them money.

00:52:55: That's, that's the facts.

00:52:56: Yeah.

00:52:56: That's the facts.

00:52:57: They must come with the coins.

00:52:58: They must.

00:52:59: Oh, yes.

00:53:02: Do the wild thing.

00:53:03: Do the thing that scares you the most and do it well.

00:53:07: In a world that tries to make you small, be large and try things out.

00:53:11: This is a very inspirational Instagram caption way of saying, walk to the beat of your own drum.

00:53:18: Do your own thing because you might just change the world.

00:53:22: Make sure, right, now that the podcast is all done and I'm done inspiring you from on high, make sure that you check out the Rogue Union website and get yourself a course and upgrade your life and your activism.

00:53:35: There is a link in the show notes to all the courses.

00:53:39: Also in the show notes, there's an array of resources all around sex work and decrim and all sorts of things that you should know about the realm.

00:53:47: Get yourself that education.

00:53:49: and also check out sweat.

00:53:51: they do really really amazing work.

00:53:55: shout out to the global unit for feminism and gender democracy of the Heinrich Paul Foundation that is still wildly enough of hosting this podcast and I love it for me and also to my magical team Ray and Sheldon who have walked this magical journey of voice notes and messages and chaotic emails.

00:54:14: and oh my god I think I'm like breathing a little too heavy.

00:54:19: Thank you for your post production like magic till the next episode until the next season because this is our last episode for this cluster but we will be coming back to y'all and it all be okay.

00:54:34: but till then do the funky chicken in the supermarket if they play your favorite song drink sparkling water out of a wine glass during a work zoom or even match your socks to your underwear lingerie style you know as a treat because it's all chaos anyway and this is not the apocalypse we signed up for.