A mess of pleasure as liberation, judgey gynaes, stolen lubes and magical vulvas with Dr T. a.k.a Tlof Tlof (Part II)

00:00:00: I'm like, that's your vagina babe.

00:00:01: Like you... That's yours!

00:00:03: Do you know what else it can do besides menstruate and push babies out?

00:00:06: You are gonna be blown.

00:00:28: Hey my guys gal sluts in thems.

00:00:31: welcome to another episode of What is this hot mess a podcast that kicks with fire feminists from across the globe To have conversations about The fact that the world Is hot trash right now.

00:00:44: As usual, I am your favourite firm dorm Tiffany Kaguramogo and we are here kicking off episode two of this particularly delightful cluster where we chat to Dr T about sex.

00:00:57: You know you love it!

00:00:59: In episode one, we went full serious breaking down the politics of health.

00:01:03: The role of power and violence in a medical system...

00:01:06: ...and

00:01:06: world at large whilst also chatting about Dr T's time as very special rapporteur to UN fighting for right-to-health.

00:01:15: But

00:01:16: this honey has range!

00:01:18: And now just like your favorite sex toy We are

00:01:21: deep inside

00:01:22: navigating the world of sexual pleasure with a medical twist.

00:01:26: Of course Dr.

00:01:29: T, in some circles is known as Doctor Cloughclough.

00:01:32: The fact that this a South African euphemism for sex tells you everything You need

00:01:38: to know.

00:01:39: She has done talks Written articles Pontificated and also given us the best seller Dr.T A guide To sexual health And pleasure!

00:01:49: And the lore Is just so sweet.

00:01:51: It's great.

00:01:52: One of my favorite stories about her How she made someone orgasm on national radio by coaching them through pleasure and their own

00:02:02: body.

00:02:02: National Radio, my people!

00:02:04: Write that down.

00:02:06: So the magic it basically writes itself Truly.

00:02:11: Now we move away from Dr T The UN Special Expert to Dr Cloughclough The Sensei of Sexual Pleasure.

00:02:18: I kicked off by asking Like...I had kick-off By asking Why you like this?

00:02:23: Always causing trouble And tipping tables.

00:02:29: You know, I think i would have been that person regardless.

00:02:32: um

00:02:33: because it's who I truly am.

00:02:35: so whether was going to be an accountant or gonna be...I don't know a lawyer.

00:02:39: wherever what is going to end up we will always go into end-up as the rebels then not to corner the flippers of table and I mean flippers other things too hello baby.

00:02:50: but that' tthe truth.

00:02:51: this regardless and I think perhaps that's what makes this looks like it so easy for me to do because i honestly don't have to put up any person or anything, just who am.

00:03:06: And the world you know um just accepts that and then it just you know makes things the way they are.

00:03:15: One thing you know about Dr.

00:03:17: T is that even before the fancy UN role,

00:03:19: there was

00:03:20: always someone coming for her wig and trying to snatch her edges because she pisses people off by saying the quiet part out loud which has always been her superpower allowing for things hidden in buried to be brought into light having conversations that people are afraid of Because like The World Becoming For You sideways every time I meet Like look, I just have to flex that.

00:03:47: there was once a time we met in New York and you were telling me how We did meet in new york right?

00:03:53: And these African

00:03:54: girls would just happen to like So every part of this world is ours but yes But

00:04:02: yes so like You've always had to push back.

00:04:04: So like what has it been like, you know being a doctor in terms Of flipping tables being a Doctor What does that looked like for you?

00:04:11: So it looks like liberation Right.

00:04:13: It looks like allowing myself, right?

00:04:17: Through being a doctor.

00:04:19: Not just to listen to patients' problems and all of that but also like really internalize what women were saying to me.

00:04:25: Okay.

00:04:25: And then I realized the way people trust me as a confidant The way that women will often ask what they think are silly useless stupid questions.

00:04:35: We're really life-changing aha moments for them, right?

00:04:37: In the way that I approached them in the way That i was listening.

00:04:42: And i think being non judgmental also is a big big skill.

00:04:45: That we take for granted because it's Also just been unjudgmental Because it's my job like have to listen to you and be like oh i don't judge You but you know when your doctor has judging you you do okay.

00:04:54: i had To break up with my guiney by The Way because she knew She's judging me.

00:04:58: so i am the doctor through My patients.

00:05:01: then i would Be to myself.

00:05:03: Okay, and that's why it is important because I know a lot of the reasons people are sick.

00:05:08: Why can't have their best sex life if they're choosing?

00:05:11: Why aren't able to truly fully stand in themselves and be who there are... It was all about violence, pushback or being punished for being who you really are If we were young women.

00:05:24: contraception.

00:05:25: Oh, are you having sex already?

00:05:26: Like promiscuity is really projected on you if I married woman and your asking about contraceptions why when your husband paid Lobona right?

00:05:34: so even no idea of not just womenhood but being safe in a healthy sex?

00:05:39: it's tied to someone else what power he has over you Right?

00:05:43: So It was important then for me to sit little bit like What does this mean to interrogate him?

00:05:48: power at an individual patient level.

00:05:52: But that power plays somewhere

00:05:53: else, and

00:05:54: that's where I want to go.

00:05:55: That is the way you wanna go!

00:06:00: Pleasure is power.

00:06:01: people.

00:06:01: in a world which says who has allowed pleasure?

00:06:03: Who isn't?

00:06:06: The politics of pleasure becomes super

00:06:10: obvious.

00:06:11: People are out here having some wild ideas about their sexuals and what feels good?

00:06:16: Podcast

00:06:17: bros

00:06:18: online saying how if women orgasm then sex went badly.

00:06:22: DJ Khaled has gone on record saying he doesn't go down with his wife.

00:06:26: It's

00:06:26: rough out here!

00:06:29: And more so when you find that the word vagina originates from Latin words Vagina, which literally means sheath scabbard or cover for a sword and knife.

00:06:44: Then start having people talking silly about how dick is main character in sex.

00:06:49: So Pleasure is Political

00:06:50: and Dr.

00:06:51: T made it her life's mission for all of us to understand

00:06:55: this.

00:07:00: Is the single most important human experience?

00:07:05: Say it louder, for people in the back!

00:07:07: Pleasure's a single most-important human experience.

00:07:11: We express pleasure in very different ways.

00:07:15: we consume pleasure In very different way but many ways

00:07:20: Right?

00:07:21: And we seek pleasure in many different ways.

00:07:25: And I think if it were not for the greed of the human heart, a lot.

00:07:30: what we are trying to achieve with humans is actually driven by seeking

00:07:34: pleasure and this is cognitive framework that she had for a

00:07:40: long

00:07:41: time from beginning her medical career when she was just a starry eyed young doctor...and i think it's case at end.

00:07:48: now If you listen first episode which you should & if haven't

00:07:52: go back

00:07:53: But like if you listen to the first episode, You are probably wanting to know The tea on how she went from Dr.

00:07:59: T, this serious repertoire To also being Dr.

00:08:03: Kloklop.

00:08:04: Here is her villain origin story.

00:08:09: So I did internship in Johannesburg Charlotte Macheke

00:08:13: Hospital.

00:08:17: It's so hard as an intern One of the biggest hospitals in Joburg Like i need a break!

00:08:21: Im gonna go do my community service In clinics and just see the primary health care system works.

00:08:28: I had done the most brilliant work and learned from such amazing people at that big hospital, but it was also just so

00:08:35: big.".

00:08:36: And i went to the clinics in the west end of Joburg and every day there's a different clinic... So I was driving easily sometimes like one hundred twenty kilometers from my house into Joburg to a clinic where we needed to go in the mines and then nine-twenty kilometres back.

00:08:49: you know?

00:08:51: That is like just a Tuesday Clinic!

00:08:53: The Wednesday Clinic is off somewhere else almost in Northwest, then the other side you were like all the way out.

00:09:01: So it was very fascinating time.

00:09:03: but there's when I got conversations with

00:09:05: people

00:09:06: real conversations because we're in a clinic right and of course i was annoying because i wasn't as rushed.

00:09:12: so their queues are getting a bit long and these nurses will be like hi dr hurry up my leave me at my patients they'll be fine.

00:09:19: i'll dispense my own medicine.

00:09:20: when we are done go have your tea!

00:09:22: And infact that is where the real stories would come on cause not just two us.

00:09:28: And then the people would be like, oh I have a headache.

00:09:31: Now why are you always having headaches when it's Tuesday?

00:09:32: When is my turn to come to the clinic?

00:09:34: Why do they have headaches?

00:09:34: It was so well timed.

00:09:37: and then they came up with this story...I think i can tell because maybe you will listen.

00:09:42: but what's wrong?

00:09:43: Like no!

00:09:43: I've been coming here telling them that blood pressure medication they give me is affecting me.

00:09:50: They'd speak in riddles for twenty minutes later It comes out, all the men is saying since I had this stroke they found that I have hypertension.

00:10:00: They've put me on anti-hypertensive medication.

00:10:03: now my erection is weaker.

00:10:06: he ain't lying but everybody's just like.

00:10:08: hey man you must be grateful that stroke didn't kill you!

00:10:11: Hey I must be thankful.

00:10:12: yeah but beloveds she's alive now and so grateful.

00:10:16: who wants to enjoy his life?

00:10:18: I said help somebody, you know?

00:10:21: And so that's how I started to get into sexual pleasure specifically.

00:10:24: I realized so many people and all ages.

00:10:26: by the way in all marital status or relationship statuses everyone when i say Everyone is seeking pleasurable experiences with whatever body they have.

00:10:40: It was for us as a health system To support them In that.

00:10:43: For some People it Was having conversation around consent.

00:10:47: like You are not enjoying sex because sex is being expected from you.

00:10:52: And because it's expected form, your husband isn't even considering whether or not to feel like having sex while doing something.

00:11:00: that's an obligation and must do it?

00:11:04: There's the fear of if I don't do what he'll leave me a second wife for my baby.

00:11:08: out there then I understand because i'm the one who doesn't want to have sex.

00:11:11: so all this was just saying And the

00:11:20: absolute, like...

00:11:22: I mean people would cry because i'm just affirming that this is their body.

00:11:25: That's your vagina baby!

00:11:26: Like you-that's yours Do y'know what else it can do besides menstruate and push babies out?

00:11:31: You are gonna be

00:11:32: blown!!

00:11:33: And I spent my entire year drawing valvours and explaining how things work and talking about lubricants..and remember in one clinic I used to drive from my clinic To another clinic to go steal the lubricant From the VersaRHI clinics because they're the ones with a rich people's money.

00:11:51: And I would steal the lubricants and stock them in my clinic anyway, yeah?

00:11:57: Then then they knew like okay oh she is going to come on Tuesdays and demand condoms and all sorts of things...and it became run-in joke.

00:12:03: Oh here she comes!

00:12:04: Here he

00:12:04: comes!".

00:12:05: The patients who were younger anyone had any sexual health issue.

00:12:09: They become Dr.

00:12:10: Lang's patient.

00:12:11: That how that started.

00:12:12: Oh Dr.Lang's patient.

00:12:14: So you know if someone has questions about an abortion Dr.

00:12:17: Tlaleng, so then I would walk in and there's a pile waiting for me called Dr.

00:12:22: Laling.".

00:12:23: Okay!

00:12:24: And so those were the patients...and it was so funny because young ones will come with to their car ...to have conversations about the literal sex.

00:12:34: the sexuals, the romanticals.

00:12:36: The all-of's.

00:12:37: and I was young then...I was like twenty five you know?

00:12:39: I was younger myself!

00:12:41: Life is

00:12:42: happening!!

00:12:43: And we were able to have conversations and references around pop culture You know..the songs.

00:12:48: so I don't think they did feel that They could see themselves through me as well So that they can ask those things How do i get a

00:12:57: license??

00:12:57: I'm like baton life orientation agana.

00:12:59: but I loved those moments in the car park You know, they made me realize how many more people need an older sister.

00:13:10: That's actually what that was—people just want to be seen and the ones who are loved regardless.

00:13:16: And for me it wasn't like you don't have to fake being sick with a headache if when I come and chat about something that didn't sit right in front of you or you were crying because we don't even have mental health practitioners?

00:13:27: Who is debriefing our patients?

00:13:29: you know, one of the television series that then they realized for the first time.

00:13:34: oh my gosh I've been a victim of sexual assault myself.

00:13:37: I've had a lot of patients who only realize when we talk about what consent is but have never had consensual sex.

00:13:43: and there are like fifty-five

00:13:48: people clearly want to need their knowledge And sometimes You Have To Give The People What They Want.

00:13:55: So Dr.

00:13:56: T did it in the form of TV appearances, radio talk shows podcasts workshops and of course her magnum opus The best-selling book Doctor T a guide to sexual health and pleasure.

00:14:09: I know i keep repeating the name of the book.

00:14:11: It's just incase you missed it because You gotta go find it.

00:14:14: so anyway this book covers sexual health pleasure and rights.

00:14:19: It has chapters on menstrual health, sex in fibroids, sex men of pores, bereavement communicating during sex orgasms...and much more.

00:14:30: This

00:14:31: book

00:14:32: also has been reprinted over fourteen times.

00:14:36: People clearly want to know the things but despite that fact most people are actually doing a delicious dance of lust & love.

00:14:45: very few get decent sex education.

00:14:52: That's why I wrote the book, like everyone needs to read the book because i had women who were in their seventies and young ones who are fourteen asking me exactly same questions so that tiny lepsing meant nothing.

00:15:06: without credible comprehensive information you can't have a seventeen year old then if sixteen years old ask him exactly the same thing about their lives.

00:15:15: And im writing and drawing saying this is where your retry, the urine comes out.

00:15:21: This is your vaginal opening because just to even look at you own vulva it's forbidden You know how many people burst into tears when I give them a mirror?

00:15:30: To say Look!

00:15:30: Have you seen that?

00:15:31: Look at it.

00:15:34: Just that process of looking but being affirmed.

00:15:39: whatever it is however...this is mine.

00:15:42: This is mine, first and foremost.

00:15:44: It's

00:15:45: mine.

00:15:45: so liberation for me feels like that.

00:15:47: That's why I do this work The ability of people to just sit in there And claim themselves.

00:15:53: You know these lands are the biggest Acre...the most expensive acre of land.

00:15:57: These bodies of ours They're claimed by everything and everyone.

00:16:00: Even before we were born they already celebrated whether it was a girl or boy.

00:16:06: So even before you are born, they tell ya it's a girl.

00:16:09: Go try again for your boy!

00:16:11: You haven't learned how to suckle from your mother or breastfeed?

00:16:16: You just been born and she is already being told don't worry its a girl.

00:16:21: Try for her next week.

00:16:23: You have not had the first

00:16:26: meal

00:16:27: as a newborn girl child

00:16:30: Already dismissed

00:16:31: That same mother who has been told do you swear on your show?

00:16:35: who have been pregnant today because she gave birth to a girl.

00:16:40: They are saying, ah next week go for it girl try for your boy.

00:16:45: but last weeks was told shes a

00:16:47: how?

00:16:47: But Today Because he didn't do right by the universe Go Try For Your Boy.

00:16:54: And so yeah The politics of sex.

00:16:57: Who's allowed To Have Sex?

00:16:59: Who is not allowed to have sex?

00:17:00: Who Is Allowed To Have Good Sex?

00:17:02: Just Mediocre Sex and Be Fine.

00:17:05: I'm like toe-curling, explosive.

00:17:09: Like listen those are the ones we want.

00:17:11: if they're off your choice go for it but within the context of consent.

00:17:17: I talk about that because there's no sexual pleasure without consent.

00:17:24: so Because this podcast is a safe space i'm going to tell you how i am here For That Toe Curling Explosive

00:17:33: Sex

00:17:34: Vibe Having recently gone through a big life change in terms of being partnered.

00:17:39: Look, saying breakup sounds so harsh like

00:17:42: it's also hard

00:17:44: not very transformative Not very soft girl era.

00:17:47: anyway having grown haven't gone through this sort of like Big-life Change.

00:17:53: I am now in that what their mouth do Error right.

00:17:58: and the thing is The journey with your body is that?

00:18:02: It's a journey I know.

00:18:04: after my brain surgery, i hit a hard reset.

00:18:08: I often described it like feeling like a virgin in the body but like a sex-positive practitioner in the mind which was THE MOST CONFUSING

00:18:19: SHIT

00:18:20: EVER!

00:18:21: Anyway fast forward to now and im here like okay... Bar a few non monogamy side quests..I was with that same person for fifteen years And Now Im Back In The Streets.

00:18:34: So what does sex look like for me?

00:18:37: What does pleasure look like?

00:18:39: let me figure it out and I can tell you kiddie booze It has been a journey.

00:18:45: Like my bedside, My bed side table is looking like i don't know A sex toy shop right now but You Know what a looter.

00:18:54: continue.

00:18:55: And despite the thirteen years of being a sex positive practitioner who Is funny enough to get you outta your panties?

00:19:03: Sometimes even I have moments where I'm like, this is a lot to conceptualize and to contend with.

00:19:11: It can be tricky sometimes because finding the right tools and information to work this path can be hard.

00:19:18: And it can difficult Because there's lots of wild and harmful stuff

00:19:23: out

00:19:24: All sorts of myths and misconceptions baked into problematic ideas around pleasure, gender and societal roles.

00:19:32: And religion and culture just all sorts are like wildness.

00:19:37: so when you're out there looking for a snack be patient with yourselves but also stay woke okay?

00:19:43: Stay woke homie!

00:19:44: And stay focused.

00:19:46: Not all things are fit for consumption Because much as it's fun in games It is kind-of serious.

00:19:54: Find

00:19:54: the right information so you do not get led astray.

00:20:03: In the context of sexually transmitted illnesses, we have to talk about safer sex.

00:20:08: I've talked about lubricants, you know some of us are perimenoposal.

00:20:10: We're very young but yeah i think life is dealt with as hot we have so many menopausal in our forties it's not even funny no never things to tell us about lubricant because how could you have menopause at forty or forty five for whatever right?

00:20:21: So all of those things were important that they are done in a language also that's invited and all.

00:20:26: this is not a lecture like.

00:20:27: we'll need credible medical information.

00:20:30: but he also just needs to be emancipated Just released from the shackles that are not even ours.

00:20:38: They're not, they're not even hours.

00:20:40: but let them go.

00:20:42: don't internalize those things.

00:20:44: Let them go and redefine yourself in a different way.

00:20:47: But truly pleasure period!

00:20:50: But specifically sexual pleasure.

00:20:52: It's human right.

00:21:00: A framework

00:21:01: that informs Dr.

00:21:02: T's work is the difference between risk-based approach versus pleasure-based.

00:21:07: when it comes to sex education The risk based approach is intense, all STIs and risks of unwanted pregnancy and steeped in a lot stigma and shame.

00:21:20: Now the pleasure base approach focuses on pleasure & wellbeing And how sex about living your holistically best life while also taking into account the risks associated with sexual activity.

00:21:33: It focuses on stuff like the fact that pleasure is a core part of practicing safe sex and that two are not mutually exclusive but in fact intricately linked.

00:21:45: This approach promotes conversations, thoughts & discussions that bring together sexual pleasure, sexual rights and sexual health

00:21:53: e.g.,

00:21:54: looking at consent, privacy safety diversity self-confidence communication.

00:22:01: It also makes sexual pleasure a part of collective conversations around sexual health and sexual rights.

00:22:10: So just to quick note because we try and cite our sources up on this thing.

00:22:14: This wisdom came from the Global Advisory Board for Sexual Health & Sexual Wellbeing.

00:22:22: I defend the ability of humans to have part of that human experience outside of violence in a safer way, In the way that pleasure can be amplified by toys and looms.

00:22:38: And how your person smells or looks whatever it is.

00:22:41: Or

00:22:41: persons depending on... Hey!

00:22:44: How big their party?

00:22:45: Some are trying being our whole era please….

00:22:50: And there you have it My cluster of podcasts with homie and hero Dr.

00:22:54: Tleileng, wrapped up like a phallus before penetration.

00:22:57: The ins-and-outs of sex and pleasure can seem like a lot to navigate but truly exploring your pleasure With the healthy dose of bodily autonomy And understanding that politics or feeling good helps ease things along.

00:23:11: As usual check out show notes for all sorts of links in things But are helpful because you know we're here for smart time not just a good time.

00:23:20: Shout out to the Global Unit for Feminism and Gender Democracy of The Heinrich Paul Foundation that is hosting this podcast.

00:23:29: And also, you know my team – THE PEOPLE WHO BE DOING THE THINGS, Rachel Amotto & Sheldon Mutay for like just that mixing and mastering, replying my emails accepting my whatsapps.

00:23:41: I love y'all!

00:23:43: Thank you also to CAM.

00:23:44: why are you like this Smith?

00:23:46: For being a mega mind in giving me again Some good thoughts, some good feelings and some good things to say on this.

00:23:54: so I'm not just waxing nonsense.

00:23:56: Till the next episode do your kegels regardless of genitalia.

00:24:00: post that sexy pic to your close friends because they too deserve nice things And look at your vulva using one of those fancy influencer lights Because it deserves the drama!

00:24:12: Cause its all chaos anyway...and you know what?

00:24:15: This is NOT The Apocalypse we signed up for.